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Old 03-08-2006, 10:37 PM   #1
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Default FM and BEGI learning something from jap tuners!?

I just thought it was interesting how the two are both using big *** horizontal core ICs now, even though they've always preached the benefits of smaller, vertical core ICs.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/c...flip.php?x=627
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:00 PM   #2
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I remember recently reading about Corky Bell reversing himself on his vertical-flow-is-better beliefs. He's behind BEGI and the FM kits are descended from the original BEGI kit, right?

Anyway, as "well thought-out" as their kits supposedly are, I've always thought FM's charge pipe routing and general IC configuration looked a lot more complicated than need be.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Hounos
I just thought it was interesting how the two are both using big *** horizontal core ICs now, even though they've always preached the benefits of smaller, vertical core ICs.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/c...flip.php?x=627
ha funny. They need those large IC's to cool all the hot air the tiny turbo's FM uses at a high psi. Jeez I was looking at a dyno plot they had the other day of a greddy making ~265whp. For now I will subtract 20whp from their dyno plots to get a realistic number. :gay:
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Old 03-09-2006, 09:37 AM   #4
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i know the guy who bought the "yellow submarine" off FM a few years back. a built-motor 1.6, blah blah blah. he went to a local dyno shop and the car was making 30-40hp LESS than the FM dyno showed. :gay:

btw, my BEGI intercooler system arrived this week. decided to buy it from Corky rather than FM...Corky's good people.
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Old 03-09-2006, 10:51 AM   #5
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Ttiwwp @ Kfj
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:06 AM   #6
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i have the other half out in the shop here at work. i'm inspecting all the pieces and test fitting them out of the car during lulls. all nicely powdercoated. could there be a better system? sure, but it's difficult to find one this complete and proven.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:08 AM   #7
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oh yah...my free FM downpipe arrived yesterday. :gay:

it's used, it's stainless, it's from california, it's in terrific condition. i paid the price of shipping.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:41 AM   #8
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Yes yes yes we all know the price that woolery charged you.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:53 AM   #9
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:32 PM   #10
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It's so funny to hear some of you guys talk on this forum. Why are you bashing FM? Yes, they're not the second-coming of christ, but they did help jump-start what's turned out to be quite a respectable aftermarket scene for the Miata.

Is some of their stuff over-priced? Maybe. But I don't see a whole heckuva lot of other turbo kits out there in their price range to compare, anyway.

Could certain parts of their kits be designed better? Sure. But Corky designed the bulk of their "hard points" many moons ago, most of them requiring only very minor upgrades over the years. There's no doubt they're proven and reliable. Now that they've split, both are going back to the drawing board to make certain parts of the kit better.

If it weren't for FM, we'd not have had such tremendous support for the Link ECU, as they basically built a bespoke ECU kit specifically for the car. Furthermore, nobody else stepped up to the plate to get the Hydra working on the Miatas, so that's one more ECU that has Miata-specific support (how many others are there that having wiring harnesses, tuning maps, etc. just for the Miata? AEM's had a wiring harness, I think...but I don't know that they even support it anymore for the Miata).

Anywho, I just think it's funny. I know we all love to save a buck or two on this board, but c'mon, give credit where it's due. I don't see any of us out there creating cast manifolds, working with ECU vendors and designing complete turbo kits for the aftermarket.
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Old 03-09-2006, 02:19 PM   #11
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yes, flying miata really "brought it all together". it's a solid kit, it's sure pretty reliable. they've done a tremendous job marketing themselves and establishing their brand.

their stuff is pretty expensive. their support is awesome. i bought my link USED and they still walked through a lot of n00b stuff. how cool is that? the things that leave a bad taste in my mouth is the one or two employees they have who like to bash other vendors or companies. i really don't like the smugness of some of the fm loyalists, either.

i've never met anyone from fm face to face, but i've talked to a few on the phones. Bill cardell was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about some questions i had a few years back. i've now also talked with corky bell on the phone and he's a genuinely nice man. both of those guys certainly know my miata far better than i do. they're also very confident in their products and i think time has proven them correct.

it's a business, their not into it to GIVE it away. it's not exclusive. i think the pieces i have now are head and shoulders above my greddy pieces i had, i just can't afford to buy the fm/begi stuff new.
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Old 03-09-2006, 02:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung fu jesus
i really don't like the smugness of some of the fm loyalists, either.
That's my main problem. Corky bell, is knowledgable as he is, is held up as infallable and a lot of his/FM's followers always characterized big, horizontal ICs as inefficient and acted like Bell/FM were the only folks in the world who knew anything about turbocharging. Funny how they've had to reverse some ideas to catch up with everyone else.

I like FM just fine, if I was a dentist or something, someone with not much time and a lot o money, I would get their kit over any other.

I ordered my oil/water lines and fittings from them, after all.
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Old 03-09-2006, 03:11 PM   #13
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Same here, there are many FM nutswingers on m.net who pooh-pooh DIY, Greddy kits, etc. every chance they get. I see "save your money for a 'real' turbo kit" or perpetuation of the belief that every Greddy kit is destined to fall apart. **** like that.

FM themselves make what look like excellent products, but that doesn't mean that those who go custom can't make something just as good or better, and come to know a lot more about their car and setup in the process.
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bripab007
It's so funny to hear some of you guys talk on this forum. Why are you bashing FM? Yes, they're not the second-coming of christ, but they did help jump-start what's turned out to be quite a respectable aftermarket scene for the Miata.


Is some of their stuff over-priced? Maybe. But I don't see a whole heckuva lot of other turbo kits out there in their price range to compare, anyway.

Could certain parts of their kits be designed better? Sure. But Corky designed the bulk of their "hard points" many moons ago, most of them requiring only very minor upgrades over the years. There's no doubt they're proven and reliable. Now that they've split, both are going back to the drawing board to make certain parts of the kit better.

If it weren't for FM, we'd not have had such tremendous support for the Link ECU, as they basically built a bespoke ECU kit specifically for the car. Furthermore, nobody else stepped up to the plate to get the Hydra working on the Miatas, so that's one more ECU that has Miata-specific support (how many others are there that having wiring harnesses, tuning maps, etc. just for the Miata? AEM's had a wiring harness, I think...but I don't know that they even support it anymore for the Miata).

Anywho, I just think it's funny. I know we all love to save a buck or two on this board, but c'mon, give credit where it's due. I don't see any of us out there creating cast manifolds, working with ECU vendors and designing complete turbo kits for the aftermarket.
It is true FM does do a lot of good work and if it wasnt for them miatas might not have as many good go fast parts. The truth is FM doesnt make a lot of the products they sell (at usually a nice markup.) so they would still exist even if there was no FM. Susport for those parts would be proabably lacking though..

I think the issue for me is the smug FM owners, the guys that own/operate FM are great guys. I too cant stand 80% of the miata.net guys that jizz them selves over how there is an Ubercharged/FM XIVIICI (Dont get me wrong Ubercharged miatas sound great!) miata that makes like 300whp when there are other cars out there, like hondas that are making double that. FM is a good company but jesus, some of FM's fanboys need to just shut up sometimes.

My main issue with the company is it's dyno's. I dont feel that they are accurate. This may be do to them overcorrecting for elevation or they dyno the cars on like a 5c day I dunno. Their ~185whp from their FMI doesnt look so good when it might be 10 to 20 less whp when you take it to your local dyno. I know that with dyno's its like everyone is measuring the same thing with different rulers but still, If you end up with 165-175whp for 3800+ price of clutch and other crap that doesnt seem that great to me.
I am sure a lot of FMII owners would be susprised that there are a crap load of GReddy'ed cars out there that are faster and were built for usually a lot less, but they will still bash on it :gay: .
That said I really dont try to go out of my way to bash FM. My first post was more of a joke than anything.
I do feel though that the Miata world in general can learn a lot from other car guys. A good number of miata.net'ers will bash cars like hondas but they dont seem to realise that there are honda guys that are N/A that make 200whp+ and with a decent suspension setup would be faster than a lot of the boosted miatas. A lot of guys need to realise that the miata isnt the best car in the world- its just a good car.
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:26 PM   #15
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well-said.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:16 PM   #16
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I have a few parts from FM but I don't think they are the holy grail when it comes to miata parts,They have some really good products(little on the expensive side)that work well.80% of the people on M.net have no clue what they are talking about,They think they know everything there is to know about a miata cause they have owned their car for a year and have been reading the forum for two years.I have no problem with DIY and Greddy kits(I use to have a Greddy kit)and really appreciate the creativity of individuals that do so with other alternatives other than FM or BEGI.
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Old 03-09-2006, 07:07 PM   #17
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To be honest I dont understand why theres really any debate about tuner cars and what parts and stuff. All of the characteristics of intercoolers can be calculated of measured, so there shouldnt be any suprises. Same things with turbos, just everyones way to lazy...
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047
To be honest I dont understand why theres really any debate about tuner cars and what parts and stuff. All of the characteristics of intercoolers can be calculated of measured, so there shouldnt be any suprises. Same things with turbos, just everyones way to lazy...
I think it comes town to cost for the average joe to test out several intercoolers turbo's etc. If I had the time and resources (well I have the time ha.) I would do it. Jimb did this a while ago and it was pretty interesting to see. It would be nice if FM did some sort of test to see what the temps were before and after intercooler. (I would love to see their 1000 dollar greddy IC kit vs Jimb's with a starion or even a saab!)
You have the have the same ambient temperature in all the tests and that sometimes makes it difficult. You have to make sure you give all the intercoolers the same load of hot air from the turbo.

Yes a lot of testing needs to be done to know the answer. The only problem is a lot of Miata.net'ers are unwilling to try new things. They would like to follow the same path as others. Which isnt really a bad idea but thats why almost every suspension/power modded miata all have very simular mods. Look how many guys are running t28's, 15g or smaller turbos and how few are running larger turbo's. Also look how everyone follows the allignment settings of like 2 guys on miata.net. Hell there is a metric crapload of miata's useing kyb-agx's (I am on this list but hey I got them cheap!) and koni's (there are a few others too). Is there a better shock out there? Proabably but is anybody willing to try something that hasnt been tried and posted on miata.net?

This isnt to harp on the average miata.net'er and say they are some how stupid for playing it safe, but playing it safe has its down sides when everyone is using the same or simular setup.

There was a thread with a 600whp BP a while back (it was in a 323) and the constant bickering forced the mods to close the thread. Which is extreamly retarded becuase I am sure somebody wanted to learn from its setup but the **** mod staff was too quick too close the thread. They should of just deleted the offending posts and let discussion continue in what should be considered a huge achievment in the miata/BP world.

Last edited by medisyn; 03-10-2006 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 03-10-2006, 01:59 PM   #19
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i was a little bored during lunch, so i assembled the intercooler piping in my office. the parts not shown are the dustpan intake, the AFM mount and transition, the BOV, and a few other smaller pieces:

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Old 03-10-2006, 07:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kung fu jesus
i was a little bored during lunch, so i assembled the intercooler piping in my office. the parts not shown are the dustpan intake, the AFM mount and transition, the BOV, and a few other smaller pieces:

Are those FM's IC pipes? If so I think they look good. The IC pipes look like they would work on a car with PS and AC and not have ground clearance issues. They do not look overcomplex or anything...
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