They really are turning this country into a piece of shit. I think I'm going to get a divorce, have more kids, quit my job, have a slip and fall, and retire.

Hell...I ask my boss every day just to lay me off...or atleast when he tells me to put school first and ask him if I need him to help.

I mean really...every student's dream is a year and a half with a paycheck without really showing up to work.

In France you cannot get laid off...

I was admitted into the er yesterday monring. Got in got out paid my money.

2 months later I'm still waiting to get a sticker from the government which I paid for already.

Me too!?

I'm rich biotchhhhhh.....

that's not fair. i'm entitled. Social Justice Superhero Obama where are you?!

It's simple...it's common sense people...we simply CAN'T get more than we work for.

Now that 51% of our nation does not pay taxes...the scales have tipped too far.

I'm waiting on the revolution. It won't be pretty. It will be necessary.

I like this idea...

We are supposed to be able to throw a president or administration out of power if they are abusing that power, but even with that right, the government will try to put down any revolt to remove them from power with force. I don't care much about bitching about politics, since I think politics these days are so watered down and meaningless. Most of the time I don't waste my breath on it, but when the day comes that my country needs me to stand and fight I will be ready and willing to arm myself and fight. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the government has made it pretty clear lately that they don't want to hear what anyone has to say. They can't be reasoned with, the only thing they are going to listen to is force. In my opinion its inevitable that a violent revolution will take place.

It's time for a across the board flat tax.

yes, at <=10% federal and <=2% state. Or we can repeal the 16th amendment.

Speaking from experience here...the cost overruns and general fleecing of America comes at the state and local level in my business, not the federal level.

agreed

The Restoration Revolution!

I read it. The original house bill anyway. I got tired of hearing about death panels and killing grandma and all the other shit that made no sense at all. So I read the damn thing for myself. That big stack they show you on the right wing media outlets is bullshit also. If you print the bill one sided, in the font and margings from PDF version, it is a pretty big stack of paper. If you print it in normal font, like 12 pitch like everything else, print both sides of the paper, like everthing else, and with on inch margins, like most everything else you read, its a fraction of what they show you. That is for visiual affect to exaggerate things to support their aurgument. There are a few things I didn't like about the bill, but nothing earth sahttering. There is no death panel, there is no kill grandma, there is no "you can't keep what you have, etc. As far as me paying your bill, if you go out and have a car wreck or some major issue, you can not pay the bill without insurance unless you are independently wealthy. Let me die is a crock of shit and you know it. If you were to get a severe compound fracture and a bone was sticking ou of you leg, you would not say, "I don't have insurance so leave my leg fucked up". But, I garantee you such and injury would ring up hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills, money you don't have, but you will get treated...that eventually gets spread out amongts tax payers when the hospital writes off some, medi what ever pays some, and my premiums go up so the hospital can make up the difference.

If you have insurance, you do not pay a penalty so you are not paying for Lequisha. If Lequisha gets the public option and pays at least something, she is paying more than she pays now. Right now she pays absolutly nothing.

I'm not allowed to be a gun toting, aint my business or the government if you get an aborting sort it out with god, conservative, liberal.

And then bitch that the country is going to shit.

So you and your militia buddies are going to go out and kill politicians? I'm sure that will work well. ;)

3 ‘‘(h) ADDITIONAL INCREASE FOR FISCAL YEARS
4 2011 THROUGH 2019.—Subject to section 347(b)(1) of
5 the Affordable Health Care for America Act, with respect
6 to fiscal years 2011 through 2019, the amounts otherwise
7 determined under subsections (f) and (g) for Puerto Rico,
8 the Virgin Islands, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands
9 and American Samoa shall be increased by the following
10 amounts:
11 ‘‘(1) For Puerto Rico, for fiscal year 2011,
12 $727,600,000; for fiscal year 2012, $775,000,000;
13 for fiscal year 2013, $850,000,000; for fiscal year
14 2014, $925,000,000; for fiscal year 2015,
15 $1,000,000,000; for fiscal year 2016,
16 $1,075,000,000; for fiscal year 2017,
17 $1,150,000,000; for fiscal year 2018,
18 $1,225,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019,
19 $1,396,400,000.
20 ‘‘(2) For the Virgin Islands, for fiscal year
21 2011, $34,000,000; for fiscal year 2012,
22 $37,000,000; for fiscal year 2013, $40,000,000; for
23 fiscal year 2014, $43,000,000; for fiscal year 2015,
24 $46,000,000; for fiscal year 2016, $49,000,000; for

1 fiscal year 2017, $52,000,000; for fiscal year 2018,
2 $55,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019, $58,000,000.
3 ‘‘(3) For Guam, for fiscal year 2011,
4 $34,000,000; for fiscal year 2012, $37,000,000; for
5 fiscal year 2013, $40,000,000; for fiscal year 2014,
6 $43,000,000; for fiscal year 2015, $46,000,000; for
7 fiscal year 2016, $49,000,000; for fiscal year 2017,
8 $52,000,000; for fiscal year 2018, $55,000,000; and
9 for fiscal year 2019, $58,000,000.
10 ‘‘(4) For the Northern Mariana Islands, for fis11
cal year 2011, $13,500,000; fiscal year 2012,
12 $14,500,000; for fiscal year 2013, $15,500,000; for
13 fiscal year 2014, $16,500,000; for fiscal year 2015,
14 $17,500,000; for fiscal year 2016, $18,500,000; for
15 fiscal year 2017, $19,500,000; for fiscal year 2018,
16 $21,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019, $22,000,000.
17 ‘‘(5) For American Samoa, fiscal year 2011,
18 $22,000,000; fiscal year 2012, $23,687,500; for fis19
cal year 2013, $24,687,500; for fiscal year 2014,
20 $25,687,500; for fiscal year 2015, $26,687,500; for
21 fiscal year 2016, $27,687,500; for fiscal year 2017,
22 $28,687,500; for fiscal year 2018, $29,687,500; and
23 for fiscal year 2019, $30,687,500.’’.
24 (b) REPORT ON ACHIEVING MEDICAID


you're welcome Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa....

That and all the POS americans who defraud government programs and then call themselves americans.

Like the kind of people we're now giving free health care to...along with all the other usual entitlements?

Them and the doctors who fill fake medicare claims, those that get unemployment benefits when they have been offered a job, like those who cheat on goverment contracts, those who make millions and still cheat on their taxes. Oh, and those who can afford to have health insurance and don't and go to the doctor and don't pay the bill. People like you think only poor people are fucking you, rich people, poor people, middle class etc, all have con artist that cost you money. Some even get rich defrauding the government.

Like every politician ever?

Yeah, I forgot them.

I don't remember saying this.

Just because someone is on the other side of the arguement doesn't mean you know everything about them.

EDIT:

I say "entitlement" and you hear "welfare recipient"...well there are a few more programs going right now that reach a much broader demographic and I consider all of them entitlement programs.

I don't think the person that made $70K last year and isn't even trying to find a job deserves 18 months of $438/wk unemployment. That person happens to be in my family I don't particularly appreciate them defrauding the government.

I have also known close friends that defraud welfare and healthcare programs...and you're kidding yourself if you think any less than 50% of those recipients aren't working that system.

Trouble is we have to pour ALL of that money into the programs in order to help the other 50% as well that really need it and have nowhere else to go.

Your point is exactly why I abhor ANY large government redistribution program. People will take advantage of it...and usually without so much as a guilty conscience since they viewpoint, by and large, is that the funds come from a large collective which has minimal impact on their neighbors.

Truth is that every little bit of waste and fraud adds up...and we're paying the price now. Our children and grandchildren will be in debt to poor political stunts for decades.

What are you trying to improve by forcing people to pay for coverage and ultimately forcing higher costs and worsening the system?

Almost all new drugs and surgical advances come from the USA because its system encourages excellence. Can't wait to see what happens now...

My bad, that was another post. Sorry

The Government cannot afford to fund universal health care. period. Regardless of fraud, Social Security and Medicare have run into major problems with funding, Obama thinks removing the 'fraud' will actually pay for the new plan, rofl. However, as the current costs are rising, the baby boomer generation are growing old and retiring. Tens of millions of boomers will stop contributing as much taxes to the pool and start demanding much more in benefits than before. Do you read your SS statement each year? It actually tells you that you most likely will only receive 75% of your benefits due to the program being bankrupt. Yay Government!

We cannot afford to burden the nation with another huge government spending program. Nations that provide universal health care coverage spend a substantial amount of their national wealth on the service. You've seen the tax rate in most European countries right? Which country has the highest cancer survival rate? I'll give you a hint, it starts with U and ends with SA.

Not to mention the idea is simply unconstitutional...

is that why brand name drugs are $500 a pill and generics are $5?

The idea if this bill is not to give everyone free healthcare. It is to make healthcare insurance affordable for more people, and supposedly bring down cost. There is nothing in this bill to provide healthcare, just insurance.

These companies are for-profit and reinvest heavily into themselves. Profit is the reason capitalism works, if it didn't there we'd be flossing with pine needles. As far as I'm aware, they typically have a lease on how long they exclusively own the drug and then once it's over they can sell the formula they spent billions in discovering.

Here's something interesting for you...Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th on the Fortune 500 list of top industries. Drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10. So why do we need health care reform?

lolz at bringing costs down. Unintended consciousnesses and the Govt run hand-in-hand. You wanna bring costs down, simply allow all U.S. insurance companies to compete with each other...Oh wait, you don't actually want to lower costs, I forgot.

Right now my company has crazy high coverage costs. They cover a large chunk of the costs to prevent us form paying more. In the last two years the rates have gone up 20% for us, the company took hit hit. It will be cheaper for then to take the new 8% tax penalty hit, as for the first time in 23 years it will not make a profit at the end of this year. This will happen, it's a matter of time.

If they wanted to lower costs, they write a bill that would lower costs.

So, yes the bill is about Universal health care. And once everyone is on it, it will cause people to use the health care system more. If they are covered, they will go to the doctor when they do not really need to, and will become heavy users of the system. This leads to delays in treatment and constant demands for more resources. As a result care is rationed and taxes keep going up.



I'm pretty sure they saying is something like you give an inch...

Yeah, that's worked really well all these years.

Come on Matt, you know better. Developer of the has all of the development and approval costs. Generics just have to follow a recipie. Plus, it's not just covering the cost to develop THAT drug. It also covers the R&D costs of things that either don't work, are still in development or aren't accepted yet. NOt everything works, not everything gets approved. Take away the premium and you take away funding for this and other new drugs.

Not that it may be a bad thing. At some point, maybe we were or are better off not trying to extend life even further than we are today. How long is long enough? I don't know. That said, much of spiraling health costs can be attributed to paying for care, drugs, surgical proceures that weren't even available 10 or 20 years ago. When insurance companies have to spend $1,000,000 to extend someone's life another year or two when the end remains the same, it hurts costs for everyone. I'm not trying to say "let the old die" or anything. There's not a good way to say it without sounding callous. It's just reality. Remember old movies where they were in a hospital they said "sorry ma'am, there's nothing else that we can do for him"? Now, they say "let's try this procedure" and there goes another couple hundred thousand.

because each state has like 3-4 companies that are allowed to operate within each...competion fail.

how is adding 36 million people into the system going to lower costs?

And yes, it has worked, we have the best system in the world. I have ZERO complaints about the service I get for the price I pay...I read my statements and I see how much my insurance covers.


You think energy costs are going to lower when obama outlaws nuclear energy?

I wonder about this, and wonder when I should stop wondering for fear of being disrespectful to our elders.

My 79 yr old neighbor has moved his ailing wife from hospital to nursing home to care center to home to hospital etc etc....all working the loopholes and rules of the medicare system to maintain coverage. She doesn't even make any attempts at recovery or physical therapy, and progressively gets worse. When she gets really bad they rush her to the hospital where she stays a few weeks on our dollar, and is approved for more nursing home coverage.

Sad, and wasteful. I think she gave up on life a while back...about 6 months and $150K taxpayer dollars ago.

Don't get me wrong, we go see her every few weeks, but there isn't a spark of her there any more. I can't blame my neighbor for fighting for his spouse, but when do we really need to let go? When is quality of life too far gone? How much should we take care of those that have payed their dues in this life and are no longer able?

Yeah... that is what I said...you seem to like putting words into peoples mouthes. I also think you are lying about having read the previous bill. You seem like one of those forum "smart guys" who like to sound like the most informed people on the planet. :facepalm:

And how about using multi-quote instead of making 5 posts back to back with short replies. I don't like seeing your name that much on my screen at once.

I really could give a fuck if you believe me. I read it for me, not you. It's not like it was something difficult to do.

Fair enough. But they get exclusivity for however long the patent lasts. Then after it runs out, they hand doctors "discount coupons" and here's how it goes down:

Doc prescribes you Drug X name brand and hands you a card and says "drug x will cost you $200 per Rx and your insurance will pay the rest. the generic will cost you $10 and your insurance will pay the rest. but here, have this fancy coupon for $199 off from the maker of Drug X!!"

So you go to the pharmacy and get drug x for 1 dollar and think it's all awesome.

a month later you get your insurance statement and find out Drug X cost the insurance company $400 when a generic would have cost them $100.

That's all well and good to support the R&D efforts of the drug company, but you just cost the insurance company 4 times as much for the same drug---which raises your own and everyone elses rates eventually.

so there's a lot of sneaky dealings in the private sector too

I think a little dose of the "insurance model" in the health "insurance/private club racket" misnomer won't be easily accepted at first. Once the price-fixing racket it broken-up, we may see reasonable pricing.

:cry: Someone needs to wash the sand out of their vagina. :loser:

Possibly true. But you will see virtually no new innovations as there won't be any reward, so no one will take the risk. These drug companies risk millions upon millions on "maybe" drugs or "possible" innovations with absolutely no guarantees that they will ever see a return. Obviously, with limited upside, they would have to pull back and innovation would stagnate.

Oo anothe note, how do you all feel about tort reform, or limiting the amount that one can sue for malpractice? A cardiac surgeon friend of my wife said that almost 70% of his fee goes to malpractice insurance. He "makes" about 22K per surgery so over $15K goes to his insurance company for malpractice.

That is a good point that many people aren't thinking about. Most are only thinking about the consumer side, and not the other side of the issue.

mysdor nvr underestimate my determination. Just becouse you are a punk does not make me one.

Blah Blah, political bullshit, you're a dickhead cause you support Obama, no you're a dickhead cause you don't, fucking blah. Did this make it past the Senate yet? Or am I a day late and a dollar short once again. As for argueing over people being scumbag pieces of shits and not doing their part to support the country...in the words of Frank Rizzo, "this is America baby, survival of the fittest."

The unemployment rate is what, 10% now? We should hurry up and force everyone to buy healthcare. That'll fix that two birds in one stone!

And no, this won't make it past the Senate so long as they have their own bill on the table, then it has to be voted on to even SEE the house bill. Then they have to amend that to hell, then send it back, yadda yadda yadda. It's designed to work slow for a reason, so packages like the "recovery" bill don't shoot through cause some Blue-lipped turdwad and some MR cowboy held hands and told us it would work...

As long as there are illnesses there will be a market for innovation. Reform and reasonable pricing doesn't mean the healthcare industry will not turn a profit or implode overnight. If the corporate giants don't think they can make enough money then let them fold and someone who can turn a profit and do the work will show up.

Its more than necessary.

On another another note, how do you feel about salaried doctors? a la Mayo...

I've never heard of this. I suppose that I am OK with it. I wonder how many of them would be? You know that salary usually means more work + more hours = same pay.

Decreasing incentives for doctors is not a good idear...Doctors, like most folks, will provide higher quality care when given financial incentives to do so.

+1

I think we already have enough problems getting young people into engineering and doctorate programs.

I can guarantee you that if we payed engineers $10-15K/yr less 60% of my classmates would drop out right now...and I'd consider it.

You think I'm as productive this year when they stopped matching my 401k contributions and got rid of my bonus program? I do spend a lot of time sending my resume out, does that count?

About the survival rates for cancer. You're the best in 5-year survival in prostate cancer, and thats if you're white. You're in the top league for the other four cancers in the study (there is only one worldwide, in lancet oncology), still, only if you are white. And you still have a cost per patient that is more than 1,5 times what the rest of the top runners spend.

Just want to give you some numbers, sadly, the study itself is pay per view.

A lot of the medical exellence we see in the states is due to your big universities, harvard alone has a reseach budget larger than what 5-10 more regular universities have to spend. This shouldn't go away with a new healtcare bill.

Interresting reading though, keep it up :)

I'm shocked, I would have thought community colleges were leading the way....

The idea is for office visits. Rather than a get you in, get you out as fast as possible (dollars per patient or procedure), they actually give you the time you need.

You can still have incentives for doctors who perform well and not have it be tied to a quantity of expensive procedures.

Didn't the bill have something about group doctor visits in it?