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Code:
Table 1. Selected Government Cost Overruns |
They really are turning this country into a piece of shit. I think I'm going to get a divorce, have more kids, quit my job, have a slip and fall, and retire.
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Originally Posted by jacob300zx
(Post 479915)
They really are turning this country into a piece of shit. I think I'm going to get a divorce, have more kids, quit my job, have a slip and fall, and retire.
I mean really...every student's dream is a year and a half with a paycheck without really showing up to work. |
In France you cannot get laid off...
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I was admitted into the er yesterday monring. Got in got out paid my money.
2 months later I'm still waiting to get a sticker from the government which I paid for already. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 479900)
I'm not allowed to be a non-religious, pro-choice, gun toting, constitutional-conservative?
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Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 479919)
Hell...I ask my boss every day just to lay me off...or atleast when he tells me to put school first and ask him if I need him to help.
I mean really...every student's dream is a year and a half with a paycheck without really showing up to work. I'm rich biotchhhhhh..... |
Originally Posted by jacob300zx
(Post 479927)
I'm rich biotchhhhhh.....
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It's simple...it's common sense people...we simply CAN'T get more than we work for.
Now that 51% of our nation does not pay taxes...the scales have tipped too far. I'm waiting on the revolution. It won't be pretty. It will be necessary. |
Originally Posted by jacob300zx
(Post 479915)
They really are turning this country into a piece of shit. I think I'm going to get a divorce, have more kids, quit my job, have a slip and fall, and retire.
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We are supposed to be able to throw a president or administration out of power if they are abusing that power, but even with that right, the government will try to put down any revolt to remove them from power with force. I don't care much about bitching about politics, since I think politics these days are so watered down and meaningless. Most of the time I don't waste my breath on it, but when the day comes that my country needs me to stand and fight I will be ready and willing to arm myself and fight. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the government has made it pretty clear lately that they don't want to hear what anyone has to say. They can't be reasoned with, the only thing they are going to listen to is force. In my opinion its inevitable that a violent revolution will take place.
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Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 479941)
It's simple...it's common sense people...we simply CAN'T get more than we work for.
Now that 51% of our nation does not pay taxes...the scales have tipped too far. I'm waiting on the revolution. It won't be pretty. It will be necessary. |
yes, at <=10% federal and <=2% state. Or we can repeal the 16th amendment.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 479911)
Code:
Table 1. Selected Government Cost Overruns |
Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 479941)
It's simple...it's common sense people...we simply CAN'T get more than we work for.
Now that 51% of our nation does not pay taxes...the scales have tipped too far. I'm waiting on the revolution. It won't be pretty. It will be necessary. |
The Restoration Revolution!
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy
(Post 479780)
No I haven't and no one has. And how is it that you are covering my bill? I will be paying off my ER trip for the next few years. Maybe I am ignorant to how that works...
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Originally Posted by KPLAFIN
(Post 479802)
So let me get this straight...I'm serving in the US Army, I contribute 15% of every check to my TSP (thrift savings plan) it's kinda like a 401K. In addition to this I also have a high-ish yield savings account I put money in every month to save. I'm 21 years old. By the time I'm ready to retire I will have a nice chunk of change waiting for me. If I start paying extraa for the same health care I'm already getting then guess what's going to suffer, my savings.
Laquisha on the other hand...is 35 "supporting" 6 kids on welfare and has never held a job, and obviously isn't saving jack shit. undoubtedly she deserves the same quality of life when we're "old" as myself correct? This is my problem with the nation going "socialist", Socialism IN THEORY is the perfect form of government, everyone does there part, everyone gets what they need BUT especially in this country not everyone will ever do their part, and those same people are the ones who will manipulate the system to get more than they need/deserve on top of it leaving me and people like myself to suffer the consequences/the bill. Problem is, Lequisha is not the only one you are paying for. You are paying for you buddies on this board that have no insurance that think they are better than Lequisha that don't have insurance, many of which could probably afford the public option if it is offered. But you buddy goes, fuck it, I can afford it but I'd rather buy a new turbo. He wrecks his shit at the track, racks up a bill, and he can't pay it. As already stated, name 1 goverment agency that's run well/not manipulated/and in the black and I'll consider a national health care option. I see "social" medical care every day in the Army and can tell you it sucks ass and is extremely wasteful. I'm not allowed (in technicality) to buy motrin for a headache, I hve to go to sick call, what do I leave sick call with? A big ass brown paper sack full of all sorts of different drugs that the doctor thought was necessary..do I care? "No, I didn't pay for it" is the mentality of most. It's early...none of that probably made sense so /rant. :fawk: worthless trash |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 479900)
I'm not allowed to be a non-religious, pro-choice, gun toting, constitutional-conservative?
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Originally Posted by jacob300zx
(Post 479915)
They really are turning this country into a piece of shit. I think I'm going to get a divorce, have more kids, quit my job, have a slip and fall, and retire.
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Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy
(Post 479945)
We are supposed to be able to throw a president or administration out of power if they are abusing that power, but even with that right, the government will try to put down any revolt to remove them from power with force. I don't care much about bitching about politics, since I think politics these days are so watered down and meaningless. Most of the time I don't waste my breath on it, but when the day comes that my country needs me to stand and fight I will be ready and willing to arm myself and fight. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the government has made it pretty clear lately that they don't want to hear what anyone has to say. They can't be reasoned with, the only thing they are going to listen to is force. In my opinion its inevitable that a violent revolution will take place.
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3 ‘‘(h) ADDITIONAL INCREASE FOR FISCAL YEARS
4 2011 THROUGH 2019.—Subject to section 347(b)(1) of 5 the Affordable Health Care for America Act, with respect 6 to fiscal years 2011 through 2019, the amounts otherwise 7 determined under subsections (f) and (g) for Puerto Rico, 8 the Virgin Islands, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands 9 and American Samoa shall be increased by the following 10 amounts: 11 ‘‘(1) For Puerto Rico, for fiscal year 2011, 12 $727,600,000; for fiscal year 2012, $775,000,000; 13 for fiscal year 2013, $850,000,000; for fiscal year 14 2014, $925,000,000; for fiscal year 2015, 15 $1,000,000,000; for fiscal year 2016, 16 $1,075,000,000; for fiscal year 2017, 17 $1,150,000,000; for fiscal year 2018, 18 $1,225,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019, 19 $1,396,400,000. 20 ‘‘(2) For the Virgin Islands, for fiscal year 21 2011, $34,000,000; for fiscal year 2012, 22 $37,000,000; for fiscal year 2013, $40,000,000; for 23 fiscal year 2014, $43,000,000; for fiscal year 2015, 24 $46,000,000; for fiscal year 2016, $49,000,000; for 1 fiscal year 2017, $52,000,000; for fiscal year 2018, 2 $55,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019, $58,000,000. 3 ‘‘(3) For Guam, for fiscal year 2011, 4 $34,000,000; for fiscal year 2012, $37,000,000; for 5 fiscal year 2013, $40,000,000; for fiscal year 2014, 6 $43,000,000; for fiscal year 2015, $46,000,000; for 7 fiscal year 2016, $49,000,000; for fiscal year 2017, 8 $52,000,000; for fiscal year 2018, $55,000,000; and 9 for fiscal year 2019, $58,000,000. 10 ‘‘(4) For the Northern Mariana Islands, for fis11 cal year 2011, $13,500,000; fiscal year 2012, 12 $14,500,000; for fiscal year 2013, $15,500,000; for 13 fiscal year 2014, $16,500,000; for fiscal year 2015, 14 $17,500,000; for fiscal year 2016, $18,500,000; for 15 fiscal year 2017, $19,500,000; for fiscal year 2018, 16 $21,000,000; and for fiscal year 2019, $22,000,000. 17 ‘‘(5) For American Samoa, fiscal year 2011, 18 $22,000,000; fiscal year 2012, $23,687,500; for fis19 cal year 2013, $24,687,500; for fiscal year 2014, 20 $25,687,500; for fiscal year 2015, $26,687,500; for 21 fiscal year 2016, $27,687,500; for fiscal year 2017, 22 $28,687,500; for fiscal year 2018, $29,687,500; and 23 for fiscal year 2019, $30,687,500.’’. 24 (b) REPORT ON ACHIEVING MEDICAID you're welcome Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa.... |
Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 479959)
Speaking from experience here...the cost overruns and general fleecing of America comes at the state and local level in my business, not the federal level.
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Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480037)
That and all the POS americans who defraud government programs and then call themselves americans.
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Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 480039)
Like the kind of people we're now giving free health care to...along with all the other usual entitlements?
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Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480037)
That and all the POS americans who defraud government programs and then call themselves americans.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480042)
Like every politician ever?
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Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480041)
People like you think only poor people are fucking you,
Just because someone is on the other side of the arguement doesn't mean you know everything about them. EDIT: I say "entitlement" and you hear "welfare recipient"...well there are a few more programs going right now that reach a much broader demographic and I consider all of them entitlement programs. I don't think the person that made $70K last year and isn't even trying to find a job deserves 18 months of $438/wk unemployment. That person happens to be in my family I don't particularly appreciate them defrauding the government. I have also known close friends that defraud welfare and healthcare programs...and you're kidding yourself if you think any less than 50% of those recipients aren't working that system. Trouble is we have to pour ALL of that money into the programs in order to help the other 50% as well that really need it and have nowhere else to go. Your point is exactly why I abhor ANY large government redistribution program. People will take advantage of it...and usually without so much as a guilty conscience since they viewpoint, by and large, is that the funds come from a large collective which has minimal impact on their neighbors. Truth is that every little bit of waste and fraud adds up...and we're paying the price now. Our children and grandchildren will be in debt to poor political stunts for decades. |
What are you trying to improve by forcing people to pay for coverage and ultimately forcing higher costs and worsening the system?
Almost all new drugs and surgical advances come from the USA because its system encourages excellence. Can't wait to see what happens now... |
Originally Posted by gospeed81
(Post 480046)
I don't remember saying this.
Just because someone is on the other side of the arguement doesn't mean you know everything about them. |
Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480041)
Them and the doctors who fill fake medicare claims, those that get unemployment benefits when they have been offered a job, like those who cheat on goverment contracts, those who make millions and still cheat on their taxes. Oh, and those who can afford to have health insurance and don't and go to the doctor and don't pay the bill. People like you think only poor people are fucking you, rich people, poor people, middle class etc, all have con artist that cost you money. Some even get rich defrauding the government.
The Government cannot afford to fund universal health care. period. Regardless of fraud, Social Security and Medicare have run into major problems with funding, Obama thinks removing the 'fraud' will actually pay for the new plan, rofl. However, as the current costs are rising, the baby boomer generation are growing old and retiring. Tens of millions of boomers will stop contributing as much taxes to the pool and start demanding much more in benefits than before. Do you read your SS statement each year? It actually tells you that you most likely will only receive 75% of your benefits due to the program being bankrupt. Yay Government! We cannot afford to burden the nation with another huge government spending program. Nations that provide universal health care coverage spend a substantial amount of their national wealth on the service. You've seen the tax rate in most European countries right? Which country has the highest cancer survival rate? I'll give you a hint, it starts with U and ends with SA. Not to mention the idea is simply unconstitutional... |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480047)
What are you trying to improve by forcing people to pay for coverage and ultimately forcing higher costs and worsening the system?
Almost all new drugs and surgical advances come from the USA because its system encourages excellence. Can't wait to see what happens now... |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480051)
The Government cannot afford to fund universal health care. period. Regardless of fraud, Social Security and Medicare have run into major problems with funding, Obama thinks removing the 'fraud' will actually pay for the new plan, rofl. However, as the current costs are rising, the baby boomer generation are growing old and retiring. Tens of millions of boomers will stop contributing as much taxes to the pool and start demanding much more in benefits than before. Do you read your SS statement each year? It actually tells you that you most likely will only receive 75% of your benefits due to the program being bankrupt. Yay Government!
We cannot afford to burden the nation with another huge government spending program. Nations that provide universal health care coverage spend a substantial amount of their national wealth on the service. You've seen the tax rate in most European countries right? Which country has the highest cancer survival rate? I'll give you a hint, it starts with U and ends with SA. |
These companies are for-profit and reinvest heavily into themselves. Profit is the reason capitalism works, if it didn't there we'd be flossing with pine needles. As far as I'm aware, they typically have a lease on how long they exclusively own the drug and then once it's over they can sell the formula they spent billions in discovering.
Here's something interesting for you...Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th on the Fortune 500 list of top industries. Drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10. So why do we need health care reform? |
Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480053)
The idea if this bill is not to give everyone free healthcare. It is to make healthcare insurance affordable for more people, and supposedly bring down cost. There is nothing in this bill to provide healthcare, just insurance.
Right now my company has crazy high coverage costs. They cover a large chunk of the costs to prevent us form paying more. In the last two years the rates have gone up 20% for us, the company took hit hit. It will be cheaper for then to take the new 8% tax penalty hit, as for the first time in 23 years it will not make a profit at the end of this year. This will happen, it's a matter of time. If they wanted to lower costs, they write a bill that would lower costs. So, yes the bill is about Universal health care. And once everyone is on it, it will cause people to use the health care system more. If they are covered, they will go to the doctor when they do not really need to, and will become heavy users of the system. This leads to delays in treatment and constant demands for more resources. As a result care is rationed and taxes keep going up. I'm pretty sure they saying is something like you give an inch... |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480060)
lolz at bringing costs down. Unintended consciousnesses and the Govt run hand-in-hand. You wanna bring costs down simply let all US insurance companies compete with each other...Oh wait, you don't actually want to lower costs, I forgot.
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Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 480052)
is that why brand name drugs are $500 a pill and generics are $5?
Not that it may be a bad thing. At some point, maybe we were or are better off not trying to extend life even further than we are today. How long is long enough? I don't know. That said, much of spiraling health costs can be attributed to paying for care, drugs, surgical proceures that weren't even available 10 or 20 years ago. When insurance companies have to spend $1,000,000 to extend someone's life another year or two when the end remains the same, it hurts costs for everyone. I'm not trying to say "let the old die" or anything. There's not a good way to say it without sounding callous. It's just reality. Remember old movies where they were in a hospital they said "sorry ma'am, there's nothing else that we can do for him"? Now, they say "let's try this procedure" and there goes another couple hundred thousand. |
Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480062)
Yeah, that's worked really well all these years.
because each state has like 3-4 companies that are allowed to operate within each...competion fail. how is adding 36 million people into the system going to lower costs? And yes, it has worked, we have the best system in the world. I have ZERO complaints about the service I get for the price I pay...I read my statements and I see how much my insurance covers. You think energy costs are going to lower when obama outlaws nuclear energy? |
Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 480066)
At some point, maybe we were or are better off not trying to extend life even further than we are today. How long is long enough? I don't know.
My 79 yr old neighbor has moved his ailing wife from hospital to nursing home to care center to home to hospital etc etc....all working the loopholes and rules of the medicare system to maintain coverage. She doesn't even make any attempts at recovery or physical therapy, and progressively gets worse. When she gets really bad they rush her to the hospital where she stays a few weeks on our dollar, and is approved for more nursing home coverage. Sad, and wasteful. I think she gave up on life a while back...about 6 months and $150K taxpayer dollars ago. Don't get me wrong, we go see her every few weeks, but there isn't a spark of her there any more. I can't blame my neighbor for fighting for his spouse, but when do we really need to let go? When is quality of life too far gone? How much should we take care of those that have payed their dues in this life and are no longer able? |
Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480035)
So you and your militia buddies are going to go out and kill politicians? I'm sure that will work well. ;)
And how about using multi-quote instead of making 5 posts back to back with short replies. I don't like seeing your name that much on my screen at once. |
Originally Posted by NA6C-Guy
(Post 480136)
Yeah... that is what I said...you seem to like putting words into peoples mouthes. I also think you are lying about having read the previous bill. You seem like one of those forum "smart guys" who like to sound like the most informed people on the planet. :facepalm:
And how about using multi-quote instead of making 5 posts back to back with short replies. I don't like seeing your name that much on my screen at once. |
Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 480066)
Come on Matt, you know better. Developer of the has all of the development and approval costs. Generics just have to follow a recipie. Plus, it's not just covering the cost to develop THAT drug. It also covers the R&D costs of things that either don't work, are still in development or aren't accepted yet. NOt everything works, not everything gets approved. Take away the premium and you take away funding for this and other new drugs.
Fair enough. But they get exclusivity for however long the patent lasts. Then after it runs out, they hand doctors "discount coupons" and here's how it goes down: Doc prescribes you Drug X name brand and hands you a card and says "drug x will cost you $200 per Rx and your insurance will pay the rest. the generic will cost you $10 and your insurance will pay the rest. but here, have this fancy coupon for $199 off from the maker of Drug X!!" So you go to the pharmacy and get drug x for 1 dollar and think it's all awesome. a month later you get your insurance statement and find out Drug X cost the insurance company $400 when a generic would have cost them $100. That's all well and good to support the R&D efforts of the drug company, but you just cost the insurance company 4 times as much for the same drug---which raises your own and everyone elses rates eventually. so there's a lot of sneaky dealings in the private sector too |
I think a little dose of the "insurance model" in the health "insurance/private club racket" misnomer won't be easily accepted at first. Once the price-fixing racket it broken-up, we may see reasonable pricing.
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Originally Posted by msydnor
(Post 480164)
I really could give a fuck if you believe me. I read it for me, not you. It's not like it was something difficult to do.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 480206)
Once the price-fixing racket it broken-up, we may see reasonable pricing.
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Oo anothe note, how do you all feel about tort reform, or limiting the amount that one can sue for malpractice? A cardiac surgeon friend of my wife said that almost 70% of his fee goes to malpractice insurance. He "makes" about 22K per surgery so over $15K goes to his insurance company for malpractice.
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Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 480229)
Possibly true. But you will see virtually no new innovations as there won't be any reward, so no one will take the risk. These drug companies risk millions upon millions on "maybe" drugs or "possible" innovations with absolutely no guarantees that they will ever see a return. Obviously, with limited upside, they would have to pull back and innovation would stagnate.
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mysdor nvr underestimate my determination. Just becouse you are a punk does not make me one.
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Blah Blah, political bullshit, you're a dickhead cause you support Obama, no you're a dickhead cause you don't, fucking blah. Did this make it past the Senate yet? Or am I a day late and a dollar short once again. As for argueing over people being scumbag pieces of shits and not doing their part to support the country...in the words of Frank Rizzo, "this is America baby, survival of the fittest."
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The unemployment rate is what, 10% now? We should hurry up and force everyone to buy healthcare. That'll fix that two birds in one stone!
And no, this won't make it past the Senate so long as they have their own bill on the table, then it has to be voted on to even SEE the house bill. Then they have to amend that to hell, then send it back, yadda yadda yadda. It's designed to work slow for a reason, so packages like the "recovery" bill don't shoot through cause some Blue-lipped turdwad and some MR cowboy held hands and told us it would work... |
Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 480229)
Possibly true. But you will see virtually no new innovations as there won't be any reward, so no one will take the risk. These drug companies risk millions upon millions on "maybe" drugs or "possible" innovations with absolutely no guarantees that they will ever see a return. Obviously, with limited upside, they would have to pull back and innovation would stagnate.
Originally Posted by Stein
(Post 480230)
Oo anothe note, how do you all feel about tort reform, or limiting the amount that one can sue for malpractice?
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On another another note, how do you feel about salaried doctors? a la Mayo...
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Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 480396)
On another another note, how do you feel about salaried doctors? a la Mayo...
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Decreasing incentives for doctors is not a good idear...Doctors, like most folks, will provide higher quality care when given financial incentives to do so.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480414)
Decreasing incentives for doctors is not a good idear...
I think we already have enough problems getting young people into engineering and doctorate programs. I can guarantee you that if we payed engineers $10-15K/yr less 60% of my classmates would drop out right now...and I'd consider it. |
You think I'm as productive this year when they stopped matching my 401k contributions and got rid of my bonus program? I do spend a lot of time sending my resume out, does that count?
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About the survival rates for cancer. You're the best in 5-year survival in prostate cancer, and thats if you're white. You're in the top league for the other four cancers in the study (there is only one worldwide, in lancet oncology), still, only if you are white. And you still have a cost per patient that is more than 1,5 times what the rest of the top runners spend.
Just want to give you some numbers, sadly, the study itself is pay per view. A lot of the medical exellence we see in the states is due to your big universities, harvard alone has a reseach budget larger than what 5-10 more regular universities have to spend. This shouldn't go away with a new healtcare bill. Interresting reading though, keep it up :) |
I'm shocked, I would have thought community colleges were leading the way....
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 480414)
Decreasing incentives for doctors is not a good idear...Doctors, like most folks, will provide higher quality care when given financial incentives to do so.
You can still have incentives for doctors who perform well and not have it be tied to a quantity of expensive procedures. |
Didn't the bill have something about group doctor visits in it?
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