i this corner begi, and this corner FM, and this corner ffs
06-09-2007, 11:27 AM
#21
Dude you still don't get it. We'll see what happens with these 1.6 kits he's got coming out. No intercooler, no timing control, no knock sensor.
If you think I (for example) wouldn't prefer to plug in, turn key, and drive, without any tuning or tweaking you're sooo wrong. Nobody "wants" to tune. They "have" to tune.
Yes, I agree that Keith said something stupid. While Tom may have wanted to attack him personally and publicly, it's not professional to do so. Attacking each other just makes them look like asses.
It's awesome that FFS got their vehicle through the CARB process. Since they don't have any competition, I'm sure they are already in the green. I'd be interested to know how many of the kits he's sold have gone to CA. IIRC, he said he's sold 100 kits.
Ben
If you think I (for example) wouldn't prefer to plug in, turn key, and drive, without any tuning or tweaking you're sooo wrong. Nobody "wants" to tune. They "have" to tune.
Yes, I agree that Keith said something stupid. While Tom may have wanted to attack him personally and publicly, it's not professional to do so. Attacking each other just makes them look like asses.
It's awesome that FFS got their vehicle through the CARB process. Since they don't have any competition, I'm sure they are already in the green. I'd be interested to know how many of the kits he's sold have gone to CA. IIRC, he said he's sold 100 kits.
Ben
People said the same thing about my car when I first started testing stuff for Tom - no timing, no IC, no knock control. I still don't have any of that. Though with me wanting to go up another pulley size, I'll be testing his brand new timing control card soon.
Tom also told me he sold about 100 kits as well. That's pretty good for only about a year of being in business.
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06-09-2007, 11:30 AM
#22
Yes, I agree that Keith said something stupid--and it was a cheap shot. But take it in context too. He also said that there is a lot more to tuning a car to run right than the A/F ratio. He's right! While Tom may have wanted to attack him personally and publicly, it's not professional to do so. Attacking each other just makes them look like asses. I run a business... and when a competitor tries to flame me, I take the higher path with my clients. Always. I let my work, my long list of satisfied clients, my reputation speak for me. There's never a need to disparage others. Tom still has A LOT to learn about engine management and tuning.
Ben
Ben
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06-09-2007, 11:39 AM
#23
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You're also running the aquamist now, and have a knock sensor.
IMO, there are far better solutions for the NA, that will be just as easy/difficult to set up, in the same price range or less. Anyone who goes with a PCPro over a EMB in an NA is INSANE. And a solution that removes the AFM such as EMU or MSPNP (again same appx cost as PCPro) is leaving a **** ton of power and SAFETY on the table.
I still wish you success with the new timing piggy. I hope Tom does well with his SC kits. He took a big gamble and deserves success. But also hope for his sake, and the sake of his clients, that he matures up a bit.
IMO, there are far better solutions for the NA, that will be just as easy/difficult to set up, in the same price range or less. Anyone who goes with a PCPro over a EMB in an NA is INSANE. And a solution that removes the AFM such as EMU or MSPNP (again same appx cost as PCPro) is leaving a **** ton of power and SAFETY on the table.
I still wish you success with the new timing piggy. I hope Tom does well with his SC kits. He took a big gamble and deserves success. But also hope for his sake, and the sake of his clients, that he matures up a bit.
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06-09-2007, 11:42 AM
#24
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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The truth always lies somewhere in between.
Truth, full engine management is better than a piggyback
Truth, you can make a lot of power with a piggyback given enough octane and some smarts.
Truth, you can run safely without a knock sensor.
Truth, FM has boutique pricing and service.
Truth, some of us supercharged guys actually do know what we are doing.
Truth, on a 1.8 you can make 200+ RWHP without intercooling and without blowing it up. (I used a Haltech though.)
Mark
Truth, full engine management is better than a piggyback
Truth, you can make a lot of power with a piggyback given enough octane and some smarts.
Truth, you can run safely without a knock sensor.
Truth, FM has boutique pricing and service.
Truth, some of us supercharged guys actually do know what we are doing.
Truth, on a 1.8 you can make 200+ RWHP without intercooling and without blowing it up. (I used a Haltech though.)
Mark
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06-09-2007, 03:19 PM
#25
The truth always lies somewhere in between.
Truth, full engine management is better than a piggyback
Truth, you can make a lot of power with a piggyback given enough octane and some smarts.
Truth, you can run safely without a knock sensor.
Truth, FM has boutique pricing and service.
Truth, some of us supercharged guys actually do know what we are doing.
Truth, on a 1.8 you can make 200+ RWHP without intercooling and without blowing it up. (I used a Haltech though.)
Mark
Truth, full engine management is better than a piggyback
Truth, you can make a lot of power with a piggyback given enough octane and some smarts.
Truth, you can run safely without a knock sensor.
Truth, FM has boutique pricing and service.
Truth, some of us supercharged guys actually do know what we are doing.
Truth, on a 1.8 you can make 200+ RWHP without intercooling and without blowing it up. (I used a Haltech though.)
Mark
I like Tom he has a good product, a decent price and stellar service. It is a shame he can't punch keith in the nose for the comments made but oh well. Tom can make up for it by sending him a yo yo and selling 100+ kits agian this year.
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06-10-2007, 01:07 PM
#31
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I certainly wouldn't say "it [the FM built engine] wasn't all that" just because Tom sold it due to not needing the build strength for his power goals.
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06-10-2007, 01:11 PM
#32
Let's ask ourselves a question. If you are buying something like a turbo or a SC and you are not a complete newb like jmann says he is not, where does the responsibility lie if anything goes wrong with your car?
This is the problem I have with (jmann) and FM. It seems to me that when a FM customer's car blows up, it's never FM's fault. Whereas whenever someone has a problem with a FFS kit, it's ALWAYS Tom's fault.
BTW, did you guys catch the part about where Tom paid for the dyno time on that California customer? I'm sure he paid for jmann's dyno time too. He also paid for the dyno time at the FFS dyno day. That alone was $1000 easy.
Jmann went through TWO engines! He went on the track even when he knew his car wasn't running right.
Who's responsibility is it?
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06-10-2007, 02:54 PM
#34
nah i dont like ecool as the standalone for my money i would WI that bitch, Jman took a car that was not running perfectly to the track that is his misfortune if i am blowing oil/snap crackle popping i dont go to the track or the dyno i figure out what is wrong, maybe his KAS was out of place causing overly advanced timming, maybe his exhaust was to restrictive causing to much PSI and inturn to much heat, maybe his fuel system wasn't up to par. He wont admit fault on not maintaining the car or at least having tom look at the stuff. For my money if i buy a SC it will be from FFS unless i can find a deal somewhere.
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06-10-2007, 03:32 PM
#38
According to Tom, the reason he sold it was because he realized he didn't want more than ~200rwhp, so it was a waste of an engine.
I certainly wouldn't say "it [the FM built engine] wasn't all that" just because Tom sold it due to not needing the build strength for his power goals.
I certainly wouldn't say "it [the FM built engine] wasn't all that" just because Tom sold it due to not needing the build strength for his power goals.
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06-10-2007, 03:45 PM
#39
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Okay, but the fact that a built engine with forged pistons might go through more oil than a stock engine should not end up as a slight toward FM, as any built engine could exhibit this characteristic.
Hence my previous comment.
Hence my previous comment.
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