i finally put the miata on the track!
 

The only issue I experienced was turbo / manifold hardware loosing about 5-laps in every time. I need to improve oil-cooler ducting because I'm still seeing 2280* oil temps. Ambient temp was around 90* and I only turned the radiator fans on in 2 of 6 sessions.

I went on the track with new suspension, 1st time on r-comps in my car (driven r-comps in friend's cars), first time on carbotechs, of course 3x the power, and it was my first time on the track in about 2-years. The new suspension was ultra-easy to drive in comparison to my old stuff, and although it didn't feel like I was pushing it, I was picking up the front inside wheel on corner exit, which is lol but indicates that I need to do much more stiffening. Its really, really cool to be able to put down power now, but I must come out and say that I was a total mess out there. Johnwag rode with me and told me to regroup, pull my head out, and relax. On the last session of the day I had the pleasure of running from, then chasing a 230whp SM-T. The extra ~70whp in my car was helpfull because i couldn't quite keep up in the corners (200lb of fat in my car and 2" less tire) but could pull him in the straights.

Anyways:
I learned a lot and forgot how much fun it was to be on the track
shrouding is awesome on the radiator
oil coolers should be big and get lots of air
turbo bolts will loosen
you have no clue how awesome it is to throttle steer a triple-apex over a crest in 5th gear at 85mph if you've never done it
!I'm a shitty driver again!

It was cool to meet the south-texas crew too.

Congrats. I'm really happy that you are getting a chance to enjoy the fruits of your labor, worries, and expenditures. It sounds like it is a lot more fun to drive now. Are you running a stock-type oil cooler also or just the external?

I only have the tube and fin cooler, with the FM 1.6 spacer and mocal plate.

Anyone know the thread pitch and length I need to get "stage 8" BOLTS for the turbo-maniold, and turbo-downpipe? I'm going to just do them all so I never have to do it again. A socket wrench gets really hot, fast when its touching the exhaust bits. lol

There is a lot more car than driver right now. I went from a solid little car that I was probably pusing as far as it would go, to another world out there. I mean seriously, I've stepped into new territory and I didn't think it was going to take soooo much more skill than what I had. This should keep me busy for a few years.

grab some nord lock washers for your mani man and you will be fine.

no one here has more track time than savington, so I'm going his route. if I could get a long enough drill bit to drill the shit I have now, I'd just safety wire it in place.

FM has nord lock washers and their new locking hardware thats even beefier.

Flyin' Miata : Turbochargers : Parts and upgrades : Stage 8 locking turbo hardware(8mm)

they have 8mm and 10mm.

Congrats, btw.

my studs are backing out, not the bolts. I need to fix it one time, and never fuck with it again.

Hell has indeed frozen over! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

This is one of the best news I've heard since I came on this board!

Good job hustler! :bigtu:

This just makes me want to visit my son even more when he goes to Texas this July. I need to see this for myself! :giggle:

Concrats! You've experience all the usual turbomiata@track issues. Very interested in some pictures of your front end, radiator, oil cooler, shrouding, fans and holes.

You know Sav had someone weld a huge flange on his turbo and manifold to keep it bolted together?

next time take a video ;)

i tried, but failed miserably. The first video is 5 seconds long with audio of John and I berating each other about the camera, then I recorded 45-minutes of the car cooling off, then turned it off for the last session...lol.

cameraphayle.aids

@hustler:

Sounds like fun, +1 on video next time. Cant wait to get my car on the track.

Sav has a "fifth bolt" on his flange and still needed to re-tighten regularly, just FYI.

As soon as I determine which sizes to order I'm pulling the trigger on stage 8, but I'd like to know how OEM's get turbo hardware to hold torque.

@hustler: turbo to manifold is 10mm if it's all the latest BEGI equipment, like mine.
Is your turbo to manifold loosening of manifold to block?

i know its 10mm, but is it 1.25 or 1.5 thread pitch, and how long should they be exactly? I have zero room for error with the gt2860rs flange because its so close to the housing that the studs almost touch the round part.

the bolts holding the turbo to the manifold and downpipe are loosening. I looked at the stage8 website and it looks like I can only get 8mm bolts in sets of 4 or 10...anyone want to go in halvsies on downpipe/turbo bolts?

@hustler: FM has 10mm Stage8.

Flyin' Miata : Turbochargers : Parts and upgrades : Stage 8 locking turbo hardware (10mm)
It's 1.5, so I am pretty sure that is what BEGi uses too. I remember a thread about Audi nuts begin 1.25 so that wont work.

Hustler, you are a man now:)

you need help with the camera? Also I found the manual and the other shit so I'll be sending that too ya soon!

Buy 4. The BEGi DP pipes are so close to the nuts that you can only fit the stage 8 eccentric on 3 of the 5 nuts anyway.

well you didnt say your studs where comming out some real loctite will pwn that the safety wire, will secure your nuts and is a good idea i just find the nord locks as reliable and a good bit more convenient. We use them on the pressess for millions of impressions and they hold up just fine.

Congrats on finally getting your ass out there.

Won't solve issues if you are fast.

Lol. Nord locks = fail.

More track time? Or more track time in a turbo miata? ;)

If you stop your studs from turning, they will end up coming straight out and just taking off the threads.

Lol @ loctite holding up to that kind of temperature. Nord locks will not solve turbo-manifold issues for seriously tracked cars.

@crashncar: so what will? I have copper coated nuts and the seem to have held up during the last track day, however that is the second set of studs and nuts that went in.

I do know that a resonating downpipe against the subframe @4krpm is a good recipe for it all to resonate loose.

:laugh:

:rofl:

Nordlocks? fucking Loctite? LOL. My Stage 8s came loose on the DP and the safety-wired turbo manifold came loose too. I think I'm actually pulling the studs through the threads of the manifold.

I honestly don't know whether it's possible to fix this issue without orienting the turbo differently.

Spot welding?

Just get an setup full o' V-bands and you'll be set.

Yeah, I destroyed the 8mm hardware on the manifold->turbo last year. I upgraded to 10mm hardware and have not had any problems since.

I do have to laugh, when I was replacing the manifold, a few people told me to use loctite on the new hardware...and then they were perplexed when I just laughed at them. I would ask "do you have any idea where these studs and nuts are? They are on a friggin turbo!"....they still didn't get why I was laughing at them.

Congrats Hustler... and yes, I do know all about throttle steering :D
I'm hoping to make it out to Road Atlanta next weekend... but it depends if I was scammed by a CR member or not.

just put hot-glue on it.

I have a flange leak on mine as well; it was leaking a tiny bit before the event but it is definitely worse now. I believe it is the 5-bolt turbine exit flange. The turbo is coming out anyway so I'll be looking at safety wire or some other locking device. V-bands would be the ultimate though hard to do with a IWG and a SGDP. It would be very nice though to get rid of the T25 flange and put a v-band there. ATP has turbine housings available like this, though they do not have a IWG 5-bolt exit flange.

Loctite, agreed, no way. Even the 640 and 668 come apart at 200C-250C, not nearly hot enough.

My turbo to manifold is leaking too. So, Stage8 doesnt work, nor does safety wire. Now what?!

FWIW I pulled out the turbo today. The self-clinching fasteners on the DP flange (5-bolt) were holding onto the stud tight; in fact, when I removed them, the whole stud came out, so the stud-to-turbo threads are the weak link.

The self-clinching fasteners on the T25 flange bolts all appear to be tight still.

The way the military does it, at least the Air Force, is the studs get mechanically staked into the holes once they are installed. No way they will ever come out again; it is permanent. Here is an example. The picture is tiny, but you can see the stakes that are driven in once the stud is screwed into place. Many moons ago I redesigned an Air Force gear box that used this style stud.
SPS Technologies - Products
Then the bolts that go on the studs are safety wired together in pairs.

I am not sure why stainless safety wire would not work? I am considering using safety wire drilled socket head cap screws in place of the stud/nut combo, and safety wiring the heads together. If the screw is closely matched to the flanges for CTE, it seems like it should all hold together. Socket heads could also make assembly easier.

Just like the nord washers (which I'm not sure why I suggested, since they're not working for me either) I'd be afraid the heat cycling on the safety wire would make it brittle and it would snap.

We need to find something that actually works for track cars besides all of us switching to v-bands. I'm tired of loosing power halfway through a trackday, then ripping everything apart and tightening it again and again.

I talked to jeremy from FM today about the stage8 bolts and he said to torque the stud in and use the stage8 and they'll hold so I'm going to order a set on tuesday. I'm also going to get their 8mm stuffs for the downpipe and hope for the best. I'll cut them if I must but I want this shit to hold together.

Any picture coverage?

I've heard of using grease at the turbo to manifold joint because it turns to carbon and fills the gaps...but i don't see how it wouldn't blow out. Maybe I can resurface the the flanges, let it idle for a while, then turn the heat up.

It leaked before until it warmed up...man this sucks. Now I know why VW makes the manifold and turbine housing one piece.

Welding the mani to turbo, or v-band. You must not be driving very hard if they are holding up.

+1 (I think, haven't actually tried it but how could this go wrong?)

WIN.

You aren't driving hard enough if 10mm hardware is holding up.

Good luck, but I wouldn't count on that as a permanent solution.

I am going to investigate in welding turbo and manifold together...

Did a bit of searching today, and Nissan is using lock plates or locking plates from the factory for their turbo's:
sr20det turbo mani locking plate?? - FreshAlloy.com Forums

True, and there are indeed loose over one track event.

Wait. Hustler tracked his car?!? It didn't blow up?!? The world didn't stop rotating?!? Hell didn't freeze?!?

Alright!

Loosening bolts and exhaust leaks are the bain of my existence also. S4 mani, potato, dp. There should be some custom tools sent with the kits so we can actually get to all those bolts. Major PITA. The middle dp/turbo bolt underneath and the right rear turbo/mani flange bolts are frickin impossible.

Just found this:
http://www.turbo240sx.ca/images/newturbomounted.jpg
E-mailed the guy asking how it held up under track conditions.

i think a design like what nissan does will be the best bet...
also i dont think welding the turbo to the manifold would be a good idea, because how are u gonna take off just the DP if u needed to?

i am removing my turbo and dp as we speak and i find it easy to leave the dp attached to the turbo and remove it all together.

Found more from this guy:
http://www.turbo240sx.ca/images/turbowelded.JPG

Can I get an AMEN?! I completely agree. When I installed the mani/turbo/dp last time I did it with the engine out of the car. This time, when I removed it, I disconnected the DP from the turbo, then removed the turbo/mani as an assembly.

Flanges are fo suckaz.

So you're having a single piece cast block, mani, turbo ex housing and vband downpipe?

Anyone tried SK6 or interference type threads on the tap end of the stud? The end of the stud that screws into the tapped hole (turbine housing for exit flange, mani for inlet flange) has threads that are sized to be an interference fit. Or in other words, it is self-locking. Here is an example in a M8 (DP flange)
McMaster-Carr

So maybe some of those, torqued down, with safety wired nuts (drilled or bend plates) would do the trick.

There are also higher temperature nickel-based safety wires available, including Inconel and Chromel
http://www.mcmaster.com/#nickel/=215gj5

This is so wild. Our 2.0T GTIs get tracked hard on race weekends. Usually 4-5 practice sessions of at least 30-45 minutes plus qualifying and then a 2.5 hour race. The manifold to head studs and nuts never loosen, neither do the downpipe studs/nuts.
I think they're standard 8mm studs and copper nuts. Not sure what's special about them, we don't safety wire anything. The nuts are frequently reused as well, they might be crimp copper nuts but they aren't hard crimping anymore.

Is double safety wiring that big of an issue for everyone that things like welding rods and flanges together is necessary?

I think the main difference is that those engines were engineered for turbo with a good amount of money spend in the process. Read the Audi forums: people only loose their nuts if they reused the nuts too ofter or their flanges are warped. The Audi nuts are $11 each though...

Safety wire is still alot of effort with no certain fix. Tack welding is probably less work.

Safety wire allows for expansion and contraction of the metal through it's heat cycles, spot welding often cracks. IMO 10mm bolts an studs are too small.

Are the nuts actually copper, or copper coated, or maybe phosphor bronze?

Hustler -

I stay off the forum for a couple of days and you grow enough fur to finally track the car...

Glad to hear you are getting the results you were looking for. Here's to you finding the time (and $$$) to frequently repeat the experience!

- L

(I got the call I've been waiting for; I start the new job tomorrow. With luck, I'll be visiting tracks before the end of the season...)

Hustler, safety wire held up for a few events for me. Im going with stage 8s and trying that route next.

I don't drive hard enough for anything crazy. I am curious what jonwag thought about your driving vs mine vs savingtons. Since he has ridden with all of us. Whats funny is, he must have watched all three of us fuck with our nuts all weekend. :gay:

Audi uses 8mm and they just stay on. They engineered the entire engine, turbo, exhaust in terms of load, vibration, movement, etc. We're just sucker slapping a turbo to a NA car, much like the Honda guys... :vash:

I've had zero problems with this. Haven't even retorqued since the initial install.

Studs are Holley Carburator studs. They are 5/16-18 threaded into the manifold flange with a standard nut on the back side as a lock nut. The turbo side is 5/16-24 and is running with the supplied lock washer and nut.

Congratulations Hustler!

Glad to see you're enjoying that wonderful car you've built.

The next event comes up in 2-weeks. I'm also considering sending my car to boost logic to get them to box-up the radiator and intercooler.

I know what wagz thought...I was garbage out there. I was basically dicking around the whole day getting over the new power, then learning to drive different lines. I'm accustomed to 94whp to 120whp at the most...then to turn around and get in this car, well, it was humbling to say the least. There's a whole new respect for the car, lap times in general, and even more respect for hired guns who can drive an SM on day, a 450whp time attack car the next, then drive a porsche.

Only track time will help.

Congrats to hustler for getting it on track.

Stein- I think there's an immense difference between beating a turbo car to death on the street vs. beating the same car on the track. The track is just 10x more grueling.

fwiw - Here's a solution from Percy - the Split Lock header hardware
http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/700/760/760-2xxxx.jpg