Manufacture Debate. Is American built junk?
12-01-2011, 04:33 AM
#21
There are two sides to it for me (and this also includes "Made in Canada"). I find if it's a small manufacturer or small business that puts a lot of pride into their work the "Made in USA/Canada" usually means it's a good product. For the large companies who just put that phrase on their item to appeal to the patriotic side in you, a lot of the times the product is ****. This is a complete generalization, but it's the easiest way to explain my thinking. There are obviously going to be exceptions to both sides.
That being said, the only US car manufacturer I would consider at this moment in time is Ford. But not trucks... only their cars. I drove a new Focus for work and it was really really good.
That being said, the only US car manufacturer I would consider at this moment in time is Ford. But not trucks... only their cars. I drove a new Focus for work and it was really really good.
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12-01-2011, 07:50 AM
#22
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I'd have to agree, Ford is light years ahead of GM. I had an open mind while going car shopping for my GF's car, to make sure I didn't push her into something she didn't want. She ended up with a Mazda 3, saying it was both cheap for what you got, looked good, and drove great, she loves it. All the other cars she liked, but found one or two things she didn't like. Price was cheap, but you could kind of tell, no sunroof, no room for our dog, that sort of thing.
The second we stepped into anything American, she immedietely said no. Random features that made no sense. Giant abysses of plastic that were quoted as "laptop holders". That can fit my entire arm?!? Drove like ****, turned like ****, breaked like ****, she did NOT like them. We looked at cars for a month, after two weeks we stopped looking at anything American.
I'd like to avoid "you shouldn't outsource to Japan" arguments, as most Japanese cars have some basis in America, and vise versa.
The second we stepped into anything American, she immedietely said no. Random features that made no sense. Giant abysses of plastic that were quoted as "laptop holders". That can fit my entire arm?!? Drove like ****, turned like ****, breaked like ****, she did NOT like them. We looked at cars for a month, after two weeks we stopped looking at anything American.
I'd like to avoid "you shouldn't outsource to Japan" arguments, as most Japanese cars have some basis in America, and vise versa.
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12-01-2011, 08:02 AM
#23
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Its comforting knowing I don't have to replace the timing belt every 60K miles which can be a major ordeal. The newer 5.3/6.0/4.6/5.4's are also very reliable. Hell, the junk 5.3 in the Miata had 120k miles on it when I put it in it hits 6800rpm on a daily basis while making a conservative 320rwhp or so. The 180k mile I6 in the Jeep has sat at the far side of its tach for minutes in mud holes because it'd keep inching forward while buried up to the headlights in soup.
If I wanted comfort, I'd get into a car. Trucks should be harder, rougher, and more intolerable then the sissies they've become. In the 50's-70's, you had a truck for WORK and a car to be seen in. You didn't go to church in your truck. I laugh every time I see a truck without any "work marks" in the bed, especially the diesels. If you don't work a diesel, you kill a diesel.
As far as the diesels- US emissions have choked out any good left in new diesels. When I have to run the equivalent of hog **** in a separate tank and the mileage is about the same as a gasser, its just not worth it. Now add in the added expense of owning a diesel over a gasser in maintenance and extra money up front and it makes it a waste now unless you actually use the truck (like pulling 15k or more which would rip the guts out of most any gasser when our old coal burner takes it and runs better from it).
Cliff notes-
Simplicity rocks in trucks.
Buy a truck to use it. If you don't intend to use it, don't waste it...Buy a car.
Make trucks more like a truck was intended to be.
Emissions choke the life out of everything fun.
*edit*- in most of you cats defense, I come from a far more "backwoods" background and use/depend on trucks for their original purpose.
If I wanted comfort, I'd get into a car. Trucks should be harder, rougher, and more intolerable then the sissies they've become. In the 50's-70's, you had a truck for WORK and a car to be seen in. You didn't go to church in your truck. I laugh every time I see a truck without any "work marks" in the bed, especially the diesels. If you don't work a diesel, you kill a diesel.
As far as the diesels- US emissions have choked out any good left in new diesels. When I have to run the equivalent of hog **** in a separate tank and the mileage is about the same as a gasser, its just not worth it. Now add in the added expense of owning a diesel over a gasser in maintenance and extra money up front and it makes it a waste now unless you actually use the truck (like pulling 15k or more which would rip the guts out of most any gasser when our old coal burner takes it and runs better from it).
Cliff notes-
Simplicity rocks in trucks.
Buy a truck to use it. If you don't intend to use it, don't waste it...Buy a car.
Make trucks more like a truck was intended to be.
Emissions choke the life out of everything fun.
*edit*- in most of you cats defense, I come from a far more "backwoods" background and use/depend on trucks for their original purpose.
I wholly agree with you on the point of owning a truck. A truck is a truck is a truck..it's supposed to be used hard, tow ****, have a beat up bed and an uncomfortable ride.
While I agree that U.S. mfgs. have diesel nailed down, it makes sense that they would at least try. Think about all the diesel products the Japanese make that are more commercial/industrial in other countries. You don't think they could apply that to their automotive branches? I am kinda stumped as to you the diesel guys are getting royally fucked on all these new emissions regulations, diesel blends and much higher fuel costs....it's a complete 180* compared to 10 years ago...and it's not like they are a large percentage of vehicles on the road.
But on the subject of interiors-
I can't say that I've been in any new(er) trucks in the past few years. I base it off what I drove/rode in years ago (mostly GM products) and it's left a bad impression on me. Maybe GM needs to target people who are like this. Since some of you guys own/use these products every day, you know them better and have your preferences, I don't and go off what little experience I have. I know I am not the only one like this either and if I were in the market for a truck I sure would be hesitant about looking at 'Merican stuff. The most I've been around a truck was using my dad's 98' F150. it was pretty basic and had the Triton 4.6...but with a 5 spd. That thing got used...a LOT. Towing horse trailers, bed loads of dirt and tons of other stuff. That thing never skipped a beat....ever.
I will say, I had to have a rental car a few months ago and they stuck me with a 2011 Camry. What a ******* **** box. I couldn't believe it. Sure it was base, but still...I had to get the hell out of it. I ended up getting a 2011 Malibu instead and I can say I was surprised....compared to the Camry. They were both very unimpressive in the end though.
Avalanche still screams "plastic POS" though. It's definitely the Scion tC of the truck market.
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12-01-2011, 08:46 AM
#24
I read the first few posts then skipped down here. Im just going to comment on the thread title.
Yes. Mostly. In my experience just about everything '95 or newer is indeed junk.
Had an 03 Cavalier a few years back. Had around 40K miles while I had it. Randomly had stuff falling off it, the chip in the key went back and would randomly shut down the fuel sender when trying to start the car. Everything in it was made of the cheapest materials they would possibly find. The speaker were just short of tracing paper.
Brother had a 04 Grand Prix, that developed a crack in the block and leaked oil into the coolant. Dont know the milage on that one though, but it was < 100K.
GF had a 2000 Impala. Biggest POS Ive ever ridden in. Always had stupid annoying crap go bad. Driving just after she bought it and all the interior lights died. Always had stuff falling off. Couldnt even replace a tire because the jack would sink right into the rust.
Mom had a few Ford Windstars ('96-98) that all developed transmission issues. As well as the Chevy equivilent van, dont remember what its called, that did the same thing.
95 Olds Cutlass Ciera. Driving home one night and I press the horn. Shorts out just about everything. Interior lights, power seats, radio, horn, power mirrors,
I have limited experience with stuff pre-95, but I had a 93 Mercury Topaz(Ford Tempo) that I beat the **** out of. Roll back burnouts, Parking brake burnouts, parking brake J turns, reverse 180s, driving like a dumbass in the snow, racing friends on the highway. Took 3 years of that beating before it needed any actual repairs. Dont get me wrong though, it was still a terrible car. None of the other cars in this list were driven any where near as hard.
Yes. Mostly. In my experience just about everything '95 or newer is indeed junk.
Had an 03 Cavalier a few years back. Had around 40K miles while I had it. Randomly had stuff falling off it, the chip in the key went back and would randomly shut down the fuel sender when trying to start the car. Everything in it was made of the cheapest materials they would possibly find. The speaker were just short of tracing paper.
Brother had a 04 Grand Prix, that developed a crack in the block and leaked oil into the coolant. Dont know the milage on that one though, but it was < 100K.
GF had a 2000 Impala. Biggest POS Ive ever ridden in. Always had stupid annoying crap go bad. Driving just after she bought it and all the interior lights died. Always had stuff falling off. Couldnt even replace a tire because the jack would sink right into the rust.
Mom had a few Ford Windstars ('96-98) that all developed transmission issues. As well as the Chevy equivilent van, dont remember what its called, that did the same thing.
95 Olds Cutlass Ciera. Driving home one night and I press the horn. Shorts out just about everything. Interior lights, power seats, radio, horn, power mirrors,
I have limited experience with stuff pre-95, but I had a 93 Mercury Topaz(Ford Tempo) that I beat the **** out of. Roll back burnouts, Parking brake burnouts, parking brake J turns, reverse 180s, driving like a dumbass in the snow, racing friends on the highway. Took 3 years of that beating before it needed any actual repairs. Dont get me wrong though, it was still a terrible car. None of the other cars in this list were driven any where near as hard.
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12-01-2011, 12:17 PM
#25
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Oh the paradox...I can't say what is "manly" because I drive a Miata...yet I can say what is manily because I do drive a Miata.
I'm not knocking on the mechanicals of some American trucks and whatnot, there are a lot of them that run forever. However, it's the overall design and all the shitty interior materials are complete garbage. Nothing like being reminded of shitty plastics everytime you get into your GM made vehicle.
I'm really surprised that the Japanese mfgs. have not tried to get in on the diesel market.
I'm not knocking on the mechanicals of some American trucks and whatnot, there are a lot of them that run forever. However, it's the overall design and all the shitty interior materials are complete garbage. Nothing like being reminded of shitty plastics everytime you get into your GM made vehicle.
I'm really surprised that the Japanese mfgs. have not tried to get in on the diesel market.
Have you been in a Brand new Ram? Its nice. The Tundras are the ones that are all plastic. Next time you get in a Tundra gave the shifter and shakes it and watch the whole plastic center console shift and squeek.
I do believe edmunds said the new Ram leads the full size segment in interior design and MATERIAL QUALITY.
Next time we bash a bunch of domestics lets do it for something besides horrible interior, reminds me of ricers saying "id beat it in the twisties," No longer applies.
I am not domestic biased either I have plenty of hate for domestics to.
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12-01-2011, 12:24 PM
#26
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I read the first few posts then skipped down here. Im just going to comment on the thread title.
Yes. Mostly. In my experience just about everything '95 or newer is indeed junk.
Had an 03 Cavalier a few years back. Had around 40K miles while I had it. Randomly had stuff falling off it, the chip in the key went back and would randomly shut down the fuel sender when trying to start the car. Everything in it was made of the cheapest materials they would possibly find. The speaker were just short of tracing paper.
Brother had a 04 Grand Prix, that developed a crack in the block and leaked oil into the coolant. Dont know the milage on that one though, but it was < 100K.
GF had a 2000 Impala. Biggest POS Ive ever ridden in. Always had stupid annoying crap go bad. Driving just after she bought it and all the interior lights died. Always had stuff falling off. Couldnt even replace a tire because the jack would sink right into the rust.
Mom had a few Ford Windstars ('96-98) that all developed transmission issues. As well as the Chevy equivilent van, dont remember what its called, that did the same thing.
95 Olds Cutlass Ciera. Driving home one night and I press the horn. Shorts out just about everything. Interior lights, power seats, radio, horn, power mirrors,
I have limited experience with stuff pre-95, but I had a 93 Mercury Topaz(Ford Tempo) that I beat the **** out of. Roll back burnouts, Parking brake burnouts, parking brake J turns, reverse 180s, driving like a dumbass in the snow, racing friends on the highway. Took 3 years of that beating before it needed any actual repairs. Dont get me wrong though, it was still a terrible car. None of the other cars in this list were driven any where near as hard.
Yes. Mostly. In my experience just about everything '95 or newer is indeed junk.
Had an 03 Cavalier a few years back. Had around 40K miles while I had it. Randomly had stuff falling off it, the chip in the key went back and would randomly shut down the fuel sender when trying to start the car. Everything in it was made of the cheapest materials they would possibly find. The speaker were just short of tracing paper.
Brother had a 04 Grand Prix, that developed a crack in the block and leaked oil into the coolant. Dont know the milage on that one though, but it was < 100K.
GF had a 2000 Impala. Biggest POS Ive ever ridden in. Always had stupid annoying crap go bad. Driving just after she bought it and all the interior lights died. Always had stuff falling off. Couldnt even replace a tire because the jack would sink right into the rust.
Mom had a few Ford Windstars ('96-98) that all developed transmission issues. As well as the Chevy equivilent van, dont remember what its called, that did the same thing.
95 Olds Cutlass Ciera. Driving home one night and I press the horn. Shorts out just about everything. Interior lights, power seats, radio, horn, power mirrors,
I have limited experience with stuff pre-95, but I had a 93 Mercury Topaz(Ford Tempo) that I beat the **** out of. Roll back burnouts, Parking brake burnouts, parking brake J turns, reverse 180s, driving like a dumbass in the snow, racing friends on the highway. Took 3 years of that beating before it needed any actual repairs. Dont get me wrong though, it was still a terrible car. None of the other cars in this list were driven any where near as hard.
the 3.8s do commonly loose intake manifold gaskets in which a shitty mechanic could misdiagnos that as a cracked block.
To whoever mentioned not shopping american for small cars:
I do really like the mazda 3 for a small car, but I reccomend when you get a chance you go drive some of the newer american offerings, I drove the cruze and really liked it, turbo and its an ecotec, whose larger brothers (2.0,2.2,2.4) have shown to be very reliable. Now Chevy has some new aveo replacement, Sonic or something like that, havent driven it but from looking at it and sitting in it you can already tell its a HUGE improvement over the Aveo.
I think all the big three have come along way since 06, compare the new malibu to the old malibu, dodge trucks, chevy stickin vvt in LS motors, Ford finally getting rid of the shitty 4.6 and 5.4, chevy volt, chrylser 300.
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12-01-2011, 02:19 PM
#27
Speaking of small American cars, the Focus sold well and enjoyed praise in Europe as well as the states, the new Fiesta is supposed to be pretty good too. Not the mention the SRT-4, and Cobalt SS as performance contenders, they'd both beat the **** out of a Civic Si.
But, stuff like the interior being virtually the same on my dads 2002 Mustang GT as it was in a 1995 Mustang GT is unacceptable, and that only stopped in 2005 when ford started building the S197. The interior on my moms Caravan is suck, the rear cup holders don't work as cup holders, and one of them broke not too long after we bought it. The spark plugs on the 3.6 (I think) V6 are freaking impossible to get to, I genuinely think replacing them requires moving the engine in some way. The interior on my 97' Dakota wasn't great, but with the exception of the ashtray, everything held together as it should. The bushings where ****, but they all are on pickups, It had plenty of power (which I had to pay for @ 13-15mpg) and didn't handle terribly, it could be downright fun to drive, despite shitty breaks.
But, stuff like the interior being virtually the same on my dads 2002 Mustang GT as it was in a 1995 Mustang GT is unacceptable, and that only stopped in 2005 when ford started building the S197. The interior on my moms Caravan is suck, the rear cup holders don't work as cup holders, and one of them broke not too long after we bought it. The spark plugs on the 3.6 (I think) V6 are freaking impossible to get to, I genuinely think replacing them requires moving the engine in some way. The interior on my 97' Dakota wasn't great, but with the exception of the ashtray, everything held together as it should. The bushings where ****, but they all are on pickups, It had plenty of power (which I had to pay for @ 13-15mpg) and didn't handle terribly, it could be downright fun to drive, despite shitty breaks.
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12-01-2011, 02:37 PM
#28
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Im so tired, of hearing this "Shitty interior materials." Is that all import drivers can come up with anymore. Ive heard it for every domestic car.
Have you been in a Brand new Ram? Its nice. The Tundras are the ones that are all plastic. Next time you get in a Tundra gave the shifter and shakes it and watch the whole plastic center console shift and squeek.
I do believe edmunds said the new Ram leads the full size segment in interior design and MATERIAL QUALITY.
Next time we bash a bunch of domestics lets do it for something besides horrible interior, reminds me of ricers saying "id beat it in the twisties," No longer applies.
I am not domestic biased either I have plenty of hate for domestics to.
Have you been in a Brand new Ram? Its nice. The Tundras are the ones that are all plastic. Next time you get in a Tundra gave the shifter and shakes it and watch the whole plastic center console shift and squeek.
I do believe edmunds said the new Ram leads the full size segment in interior design and MATERIAL QUALITY.
Next time we bash a bunch of domestics lets do it for something besides horrible interior, reminds me of ricers saying "id beat it in the twisties," No longer applies.
I am not domestic biased either I have plenty of hate for domestics to.
I know every mfg. has their times with products. Hell, I still wonder what Mazda was thinking with the FD RX-7...talk about an interior that falls apart if you look at it the wrong way.
Also, I don't feel I am speaking for ALL domestic vehicles, mostly trucks SUVs...which I feel are made with little regard because they know people will buy the **** out of them. I'm afriad to go test drive a new 5.0....because I fear if I do, I'd start parting my car out the next day.
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12-01-2011, 02:46 PM
#29
I think every manufacturer has the potential to make crap. I used to have a 2006 honda ridgeline. The rear main seal started leaking at 62k miles. The warrenty expired at 60k. Honda helped cover about half of the cost but I still thought it was rediculous that it leaked in the first place. Most of the interior lights on the inside didn't work either and it wasn't blow bulbs or fuses. I took apart the map light assembly and the little buses that connected all of the terminals were worn out. Just cheap, cheap, cheap materials used. Also, the drivers side seat was worn out after about 40k miles. I finally ended up selling it to carmax because I was tired of it. I ended up swaping my newer truck for an older truck and my older miata for a newer one. I now have a 2007 miata with 17k on it and a 99 chevy truck with 205k on it. The truck runs great and you'd think it had half of the miles. My buddy also just bought a 97 chevy with over 300k on it and it runs great. I think it's a crap shoot.
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12-01-2011, 04:23 PM
#30
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The Escalade is just a Chevy in drag.
I can't believe they get that much for either one of them. My '01 Tundra is well built and reliable. I can't speak for the newest revision. My father owns a '10 Ridgeline and it is very nice inside and rides wonderfully. It is different looking but has many practical advantages.
I can't believe they get that much for either one of them. My '01 Tundra is well built and reliable. I can't speak for the newest revision. My father owns a '10 Ridgeline and it is very nice inside and rides wonderfully. It is different looking but has many practical advantages.
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12-01-2011, 09:15 PM
#31
As far as the minivans transmission going out- That is what happens when you put tons of available room on top of a car chassis. The Odyssey's were also transmission eaters because every soccer mom thought it was cool to put 1000 pounds behind the back seat and all 5 kids plus her and her hubbies obese asses into them on a constant basis.
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12-01-2011, 11:16 PM
#34
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In 04 you could only get the 3.8, maybe the 5.3 but I think that came out a few years later.
The 3.1 was last used in the grand prix in 03.
Something good to do when thinking about interiors on older cars is to go and google a competitors car of the same vintage.
Sure people think a 2000 impala had a shitty interior,, cause its a domestic and it impossible for them to have a nice interior, but go google it and look at it then google 2000 camry interior. It makes you realize they were all ****.
Example 2000 Porsche 911 vs. 2000 Chevrolet Corvette (King of Shitty Interior Hype)
Porsche
Vette (shift ****, gauge and light are not OEM everything else is)
Both look bad (not horrible) to me, and trust me I have worked and driven the same cars of similar vintage and the porsche interior isn't miles ahead in terms of quality either, like everyone thinks. Thats just the **** they put in cars back then.
Notice the different shades of grey the porsche interior parts are.
Editors Note: both steering wheels are the ugliest thing Ive ever seen
The 3.1 was last used in the grand prix in 03.
Something good to do when thinking about interiors on older cars is to go and google a competitors car of the same vintage.
Sure people think a 2000 impala had a shitty interior,, cause its a domestic and it impossible for them to have a nice interior, but go google it and look at it then google 2000 camry interior. It makes you realize they were all ****.
Example 2000 Porsche 911 vs. 2000 Chevrolet Corvette (King of Shitty Interior Hype)
Porsche
Vette (shift ****, gauge and light are not OEM everything else is)
Both look bad (not horrible) to me, and trust me I have worked and driven the same cars of similar vintage and the porsche interior isn't miles ahead in terms of quality either, like everyone thinks. Thats just the **** they put in cars back then.
Notice the different shades of grey the porsche interior parts are.
Editors Note: both steering wheels are the ugliest thing Ive ever seen
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