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Old 10-29-2006, 02:24 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Racer46 View Post
Actually I only know of two types that are sold as rollbar padding. There are other things I've seen people try to use (I was an SCCA national tech inspector for a few years) like Styrofoam and hot water pipe insulation.

As I mentioned in my post above I'm considering the HardDog bar on M.net because I'm planning on doing some solo1s, track days & HPDEs.

Being as most people on this site are adamant about having a roll bar I will not express my opinions about them here again.
It's hard not to be passionate about the subject, especially when your life was saved by an "unsafe" unpadded roll-bar. Look I agree that making sure that your head does not hit the roll bar is paramount to it saving you, but there are options to make it much safer.

Your opinion is quite valid, hitting your head with the rollbar = bad. I think we can all agree on that.

Also my opinion, scraping your head along the pavement at 30 MPH with 2000# of car on top of you = bad.

Both are bad. So what do you do about that, well you have the discussion we have here. Both sides passionate and both sides right. The idea though is to talk about solutions to the problem. This is what makes the HD sport bar appropriate for many. It's back farther and would prevent many people from impacting their head with the bar (as seen in the pictures below from my own in house testing.) Additionally removing the seat rails and bolting the seat to the floor of the car is a bright measure, lowering the seat 2-3" can make a huge difference for taller drivers who need to avoid bouncing their head off the bar. I think the real answer is one that solves both problems... preventing your head from bouncing off the bar or the pavement.

Solving both problems requires a rollbar. Yes, that car is still on the road!

Mark
Attached Thumbnails
Rollbar review-crash_m2sport8.gif   Rollbar review-crash_m2sport9.gif   Rollbar review-crash_m2sport10.gif   Rollbar review-crash_m2sport11.gif  

Last edited by Markp; 10-29-2006 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-29-2006, 03:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Markp View Post
Solving both problems requires a rollbar. Yes, that car is still on the road!

Mark
But, more importantly, so is the driver.
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Old 10-29-2006, 05:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Racer46 View Post
My opinion on Miata roll bars for the street: You are much more likely to be involved in a collision where your head will contact the roll bar with enough force to do damage than you are to roll a Miata. If you are only driving on the street and occasional autocrosses I would not install a roll bar. If you are doing solo1 or HPDEís, install an SCCA or other sanctioning body legal bar and be sure to pad any area your head might touch.
I have to agree with you. Anyone who argues with you only has to read the caption at the bottom of your post to see where you're coming from.

Now, whether you get one or not does not make you any more or less reckless, after all the car is sold without a rollbar built in. Does Mazda want to kill us? I don't think so, they want repeat customers.
Safety is also a personal and individual choice, you decide what your comfort level is. Some people feel safe without the rollbar, others feel naked without it. Heck, some people won't even drive a convertible, much less one the size of a Miata.
Being a long time motorcyclist I've heard my share of stories (and I'll be damned if everyone doesn't have one) of accidents involving motorcycles as soon as they learn that I ride. Just as wearing a helmet is a choice where I live, do I wear a helmet? Yes, for protection and comfort when I ride. Do I wear it 100% of the time? No, but probably over 95% of the time. Sometimes for comfort if I'm riding around the neighborhood I don't bother and I don't feel strange not doing so, but when I travel, sure. I have seen people in motorcycle acccidents where the helmet saved their lives, and they were family members. But I don't let that traumatize me to the point I cannot discern when to or not to wear one.
Now, I also skydive and do I wear a helmet? Yes, most of the time. Will it save me if something goes wrong? Nah, it's for comfort.
So to do exciting, adventurist things, you take calculated risks(not careless risks) and live of not with the consequences of your choices.

Will I get a rollbar, maybe. That does look like a good deal.
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Old 10-29-2006, 05:24 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cccpull View Post
I have to agree with you. Anyone who argues with you only has to read the caption at the bottom of your post to see where you're coming from.

Now, whether you get one or not does not make you any more or less reckless, after all the car is sold without a rollbar built in. Does Mazda want to kill us? I don't think so, they want repeat customers.
Safety is also a personal and individual choice, you decide what your comfort level is. Some people feel safe without the rollbar, others feel naked without it. Heck, some people won't even drive a convertible, much less one the size of a Miata.
Being a long time motorcyclist I've heard my share of stories (and I'll be damned if everyone doesn't have one) of accidents involving motorcycles as soon as they learn that I ride. Just as wearing a helmet is a choice where I live, do I wear a helmet? Yes, for protection and comfort when I ride. Do I wear it 100% of the time? No, but probably over 95% of the time. Sometimes for comfort if I'm riding around the neighborhood I don't bother and I don't feel strange not doing so, but when I travel, sure. I have seen people in motorcycle acccidents where the helmet saved their lives, and they were family members. But I don't let that traumatize me to the point I cannot discern when to or not to wear one.
Now, I also skydive and do I wear a helmet? Yes, most of the time. Will it save me if something goes wrong? Nah, it's for comfort.
So to do exciting, adventurist things, you take calculated risks(not careless risks) and live of not with the consequences of your choices.

Will I get a rollbar, maybe. That does look like a good deal.
Where as, although a proponent of rollbars, I don't wear my motorcycle helmet 95% of the time and when I do it's strictly for reasons of comfort. Safety is a personal issue. I've seen horrible accidents... never want to be in one of them personally.

Mark
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:54 AM   #45
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I just got done doing some research on the NHTSA site. The following results are for 2004, the most recent year that they have complete data posted.

There were 42,636 vehicle related deaths in the United States. Thatís 116 Ĺ per day. The equivalent of crashing a small airliner every day!

Of those 42,636 people, 301 were killed in convertibles. They did not break it down by make and model.

There were 6.2 million motor vehicle collisions. The most popular; the rear end collision with 1,886,000. This resulted in 2083 deaths in other words you have about a 0.1% chance of being killed in a rear end collision. More people were killed by trees than rear end collisions. On the other hand 555,000 people were injured in rear end collisions. Which means that about 30% of the time a rear end collision will result in injury.

There were 144,000 roll over accidents. This was not broken down by vehicle type so it includes all vehicles. Only 2.3% of all accidents were rollovers, resulting in 4045 deaths. Once a vehicle does roll, defined by a roll of at least 90 degrees, the occupants have a 2.8% chance of being killed and a 61% chance of injury.

What does this mean? First is that commercial air travel is MUCH safer than driving.
To us it means that you are 13 times more likely to be involved in a rear end collision where your head might strike a roll bar, than to roll your vehicle. This is probably even higher for a Miata because the rollover data includes vehicles with high centers of gravity like SUVs and 14 passenger vans, which are much more likely to roll than a Miata.

Once a vehicle does roll, youíre 25 times more likely to be killed and double the chance that you will be injured, compared to a rear end collision. Would a roll bar be of benefit if your vehicle rolled? In most cases, yes.

Do I have the answer to the roll bar question? No. I guess each person must make up their own mind. Are you going to do any competitive events? Are you going to going to run Deals Gap or canyon runs? Are there embankments you might roll down if you were to wind up off the road? Do you feel more comfortable with a piece of equipment that might save your life in the small chance you roll your car but might cause injury in the greater chance that you would be involved in a collision that would cause your head to come in contact with it?

As for me it looks like there will be a bar in my car, to satisfy the competition rules of the independent club I run with.
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Old 10-30-2006, 06:51 AM   #46
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Pete,

With all due respect, I understand the stats... but my reality is that I have been rear ended 0 times and rolled 1 time. So while your stats are valid for many drivers they mean nothing when the car is on your head. I thought like you, I'll never roll my Miata... a friend insisted that I invest in a rollbar, which was installed two weeks before my roll over.

So while I understand playing the numbers, they don't protect you from reality. If you roll your miata all the stats in the world won't keep the pavement off your head. I thought the pictures helped to illustrate that clearly.

As you note, once you do roll, you are 25 times more likely to be killed and double the chance of injury... My reality was I walked away unscathed. My wife also rolled a firebird and has been rear ended exactly 0 times. Once again, statistically what are the chances that we would both roll vehicles and in our case low profile vehicles that are not particularly prone to roll overs... Hmmm...

Stats can help you evaluate the risk, and provide guidance, and what they tell me here is that you should insure that any roll bar installation should be carefully evaluated and installed so as to reduce the chance of being struck by a rollbar during a rear end collission.

Mark

PS - Excellent job on getting real world stats.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:35 AM   #47
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To share personal stats, I've been rear ended 3 times that I can remember (maybe they affected my memory) once in an RX7 at a stop light, once in a Miata stopped in traffic, and once on a motorcycle, also at a stoplight.
Both times at the stoplights being the only vehicle with empty lanes next to me.
Let me re-calculate my statistics and safety margin. Get a rollbar? Don't get a rollbar? Move from South Florida? All about choices.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:20 AM   #48
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Don't even get me started on Florida drivers. I've had 2 accidents in a Miata within 2 years. First was a senior citizen in a Navigator who "Didn't see the little car" when he changed lanes on top of me. He was probably paying too much attention to the little dog on his lap. The second was an octogenarian who pulled out from a side street and avoided everyone in the 2 southbound lanes and wound up in front of me in the northbound lane. I had nowhere to go because of cars to my right and cars in the turn lane. I got slowed down from 65 to about 35 but the impact totaled my car. As for me I sustained more injuries from the air bag than from anything else. Iím a fat boy and canít get my rather ample gut far enough away from the wheel. My stomach was black and blue for a week or so and yes I was wearing a seat belt. So after having two wrecks in 2 years after not having had one in about 20 what did I do? Bought another Miata. I just love these little cars!
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:50 PM   #49
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Anyone have a rollbar with slug bars going towards the front like the kirk racing bar. I want to see a few pictures and I'm curious as to where it attaches to the chassis in the front. I'm looking at having a bar made over xmas break and need some info.
What do you guys think of the benefits/drawbacks to using 1.5" tubing instead of 1.75". I'd rather use 1.75" but I thought someone might be able to give me reason to back that up. I figure it is a convertible so the extra .25 might make a pretty big difference in a rollover. I'm looking at doing a 6 point bar by the way.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:45 AM   #50
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I've had 2 accidents in a Miata within 2 years.
well with your luck I would put a roll bar In and deal with the risk of a Minor injury. This is what I think your face would look like as you start to flip. smile ... oh ****... splat
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:16 AM   #51
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I hit my head really hard on the roll bar few months ago...then I just decided to man up and get a seat. Now I'm safe.
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Old 12-13-2006, 06:06 AM   #52
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Bringin back the dead!
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:11 AM   #53
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Darn right, i figure it wasn't a terrible thread to begin with, why not. What kind of seat did you get Hustler and do you have any photos.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:27 PM   #54
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I have a full 6 point carbing roll cage from japan in mine complete with sidebars and its great. firstly it looks sweet, secondly it stiffened up the chassis massively.

I love ebay
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