Those with carry permits... do you actually carry?
 

For all the firearm carry permit owners out there... do you actually carry?

I've had my permit since 2008, and for the first month or two, I carried EVERYWHERE, then after the first few months, a few times a week, and so on, to the point where I cant even remembered the last time I carried; maybe a year ago?

Last week I found myself in a situation where I would have felt much better carrying, and thought about how I havent done it in forever...

Basically, coming out of a shopping center parking lot the other night, my wife and I in the car, and some asshole cut in front of us to hop in the front of the line at the light. I was pissed, so I pulled up next to the car (newer BMW 7 series) and yelled "what the **** dude?!", and this huge guy with dreads started yelling from the passenger seat, grabbed something next to him, and opened the door to get out. I took off down the road to the right because I was not about to wait around to see what he was coming at me with. I just thought about the situation later that night, what if I couldn't get out of there? what if he came out with a gun? what the hell would I have done? It was a shitty, defenseless feeling that I had, and makes me want to start carrying religiously again...

you bet your ass

I'd say on average I'm carrying 4 out of every 5 times I leave the house. The times when I don't are when the activity or destination basically precludes the possibility of safely and discreetly carrying a weapon.

Full disclosure: I own multiple firearms and used to consider myself a "firearms enthusiast." (I say used to because of lack of available time, mostly.) I DVR Top Shot and have since the first season. That said...

What I think it should have done is make you re-examine the risk/reward of confronting a guy who cut you off at a traffic light (particularly while your wife was with you).

Potential upside? You get an apology or "teach him a lesson" in vehicular etiquette.

Potential downside? You and/or she gets killed.

Risk management: it's not just for portfolios. :brain:

there is no option for i carry with out permit

I currently don't own a hand gun, but even when I did, I found it too awkward to carry most of the time. Especially in the summer with light clothing, and summer makes up 9 of our months here in the deep south. Eventually when I can afford to, I will purchase a smaller gun that I can more easily conceal and I will then begin carrying all the time.

I've got a buddy in NY with a carry permit...that is linked to a specific handgun, for which he had to apply (and receive approval) before he was allowed to purchase said handgun.

Crazy.

Since getting my permit, I've gone through probably a dozen carry options, and currently have about a half-dozen carry options, depending on the situation. Everything from a Kel-Tec P3AT or Airweight Bodyguard J-frame on a pair of Barami Hip-Grips to a Kahr P45 or Steyr M9-A1. I can't imagine trying to guess at what would or wouldn't work as a carry piece in advance, and then being stuck with only that one handgun.

vote for carry.

this was more to see who has permits but actually utilizes them....

absolutely 100% agree with you, looking back at it I should have just carried on with my own business. i had nothing to gain from saying that. but it was damn frustrating.... FL drivers are terrible.

Agreed. Carry is such an individual and circumstance specific operation: body type, climate(s), activities, wardrobe, etc.

that was a big issue I had as well living down here in FL. I had a glock 23 originally, too big, couldnt carry without printing, so I got a kel-tec .32 with a back-pocket holster that looked like a wallet. sold it b/c i wanted something with some more stopping power, and a bit better quality gun (kel-tec jammed on me numerous times), so I've ended up with a glock 36 and have found it very easy to carry. I'm using a UBG holster, IWB, very comfortable for a concealed carry holster. Well, I was using it... but seeing as I havent carried in a while..

haha yeah. NY has some crazy laws.

In MD, it's near impossible to get a carry permit. You have to either be a business owner with a neccessity to carry, you carry large amounts of cash for a business, or you have a "documented need" to carry based on "threats".

So in MD, if you are getting held up at gunpoint, tell them to hold on while you apply for your permit, and ask the gunman to sign an affidavit so the threat is documented.

So much truth here.

Always treat a gun like it is loaded. Always believe that the other guy is probably f*ing crazy.

I'm right down here with you and all I've got to say is the right gun and the right holster. I hate square guns for carry. 5 shot, 38 special ultralight. It looks like you've got a cell phone in your pocket.

And I feel naked without it.


I sure hope you don't ever need it. I sure hope I don't ever need mine either, but I've got it. :)

yeah i think it was a wake-up call, im going to start carrying again.

I carried a 5-shot j-frame .38 special for a few days, and i just couldnt get used to it. i love the simplicity of the revolver, especially as a night-stand gun, but i had a problem with the cylinder bulging, kept bothering me.

I was a gun whore for a while... i went through a new gun about once a month. I used to work at Shoot Straight over by the fairgrounds part-time for a few years (for mod-money, but ended up spending it all on guns, lol), so I was able to get a hook up.

I'd say if size wasn't an option, my favorite gun was the HK P30.

Most times I leave it in the truck - as small as it might be, it's heavy (Para Ord P10) and find it hard to conceal when I wear tucked in polos - and I work at Universities (they don't like guns).

When I lived in VA and had my permit I carried 99% of the time I was out except for when I was at school. When I was at school the pistol was locked in my trunk. Down here in SC I do not have my permit so I do not carry. I need to go get it though. Classes are always held on days I have other commitments which is the reason I have not gotten it yet.

I have found that having the proper holster is the biggest thing. I tried several different holsters for my PPKS and they were all uncomfortable or did not hide the pistol well. I finally splurged and bought a Crossbreed Supertuck and it was amazing. Made carrying a piece of cake .

In a court, facing a jury of your peers, with a lawyer you could afford, and a DA who had a bug up his ass, it is completely within reason for the guy in the other car to claim self-defense HIMSELF, and HE reached for his weapon to defend himself against you, not knowing what YOU were capable of, or claiming you pulled up beside him and started to reach first. If you had then drawn your weapon and he'd killed you, it would be the word of your girlfriend/wife if she managed to live through it against his word... but you would still be dead, and he would probably walk because "you started it". The part about you being dead because you're a fucking idiot should really stand out here.

In other words, it looks like you need to re-read Massad Ayoobs commandments, paying particular attention to #3/5/10. If you are the kind of guy who starts shit with strangers in parking lots when not carrying a gun, you're just plain fucking dead as soon as you start shit with the wrong guy. Starting shit WHILE carrying leaves you open to be just as dead, but with the side benefit of going to jail for the rest of your life if you manage to kill the guy but can't prove it was righteous to a jury of your peers.

I have always maintained that while carrying, I would go to the ends of my ability to walk or run away from any situation that might result in me being forced to draw my weapon up until the point where I felt my life was actually threatened. Any other mindset and you're setting yourself up for going to jail for a very long time should you be forced to shoot somebody in a situation where you had multiple chances to just walk away. This is not to say you should ever hesitate to draw, it's just to say that you'd better be 100% certain that it's time, and both the law and whatever God you pray to are on your side.

In fact, technology is a mother fucker. I guarantee that if you're ever involved in a shooting and it goes before a grand-jury, they will find this thread guaranteed. They will then have historical proof that you're prone to aggressive behavior and basically state above that you wish you'd been carrying last week when you started some shit and picked a fight so you could have killed that guy when he didn't run away from you. I would ask the mods to delete this thread after you've read Officer Ayoob's words below.

Commandment I: If you choose to carry, always carry, as much as is possible.
Hollywood actors get to see the script beforehand, and nothing is fired at them but blanks. You don’t have either luxury. Criminals attack people in times and places where they don’t think the victims will be prepared for them. It’s what they do. The only way to be prepared to ward off such predators is to always be prepared: i.e., to be routinely armed and constantly ready to respond to deadly threats against you and those who count on you for protection. It’s not about convenience, it’s literally about life and death.

Commandment II: Don’t carry a gun if you aren’t prepared to use it.
The gun is not a magic talisman that wards off evil. It is a special-purpose emergency rescue tool: no more, no less. History shows us that – for police, and for armed citizens alike – the mere drawing of the gun ends the great majority of criminal threats, with the offender either surrendering or running away. However, you must always remember that criminals constitute an armed subculture themselves, living in an underworld awash with stolen, illegal weapons. They don’t fear the gun: they fear the resolutely armed man or woman pointing that gun at them. And, being predators, they are expert judges of what is prey, and what is a creature more dangerous to them than they are to what they thought a moment ago was their prey.

Thus, the great irony: the person who is prepared to kill if they must to stop a murderous transgression by a human predator, is the person who is least likely to have to do so.

Commandment III: Don’t let the gun make you reckless.
Lightweight pseudo-psychologists will tell you that “the trigger will pull the finger,” and your possession of your gun will make you want to kill someone. Rubbish. The gun is no more an evil talisman that turns kindly Dr. Jekyll into evil Mr. Hyde, than it is a good talisman that drives off evil. Those of us who have spent decades immersed in the twin cultures of American law enforcement and the responsibly armed citizenry know that the truth is exactly the opposite. A good person doesn’t see the gun as a supercharger for aggression, but as brakes that control that natural human emotion. The law itself holds the armed individual to “a higher standard of care,” requiring that they do all that is possible to avoid using deadly force until it becomes clearly necessary. Prepare and act accordingly.

Commandment IV: Carry legally.
If you live someplace where there is no provision to carry a gun to protect yourself and your loved ones, don’t let pusillanimous politicians turn you into a convicted felon. Move! It’s a quality of life issue. Rhetorical theory that sounds like “I interpret the law this way, because I believe the law should be this way” – which ignores laws that aren’t that way – can sacrifice your freedom, your status as a gun-owning free American, and your ability to provide for your family. If you live where a CCW permit is available, get the damn permit. If you don’t, move to someplace that does. Yes, it IS that simple. And if you are traveling, check sources such as www.handgunlaw.us to make sure that you are legal to carry in the given jurisdiction. Don’t let the legal system make you a felon for living up to your responsibilities to protect yourself and those who count on you. If you carry, make sure you carry legally.

Commandment V: Know what you’re doing.
Gunfights are won by those who shoot fastest and straightest, and are usually measured in seconds. Legal aftermaths last for years, and emotional aftermaths, for lifetimes. Get educated in depth in the management of all three stages of the encounter beforehand.

Commandment VI: Concealed means concealed.
If your local license requires concealed carry, keep the gun truly concealed. The revealing of a concealed handgun is seen in many quarters as a threat, that can result in charges of Criminal Threatening, Brandishing, and more. A malevolent person who wants to falsely accuse you of threatening them with a gun will have their wrongful accusation bolstered if the police find you with a gun where they said it was. Yes, that happens. Some jurisdictions allow “open carry.” I support the right to open carry, in the proper time and place, but has found over the decades that there are relatively few ideal times or places where the practice won’t unnecessarily and predictably frighten someone the carrier had no reason to scare.

Commandment VII: Maximize your firearms familiarity.
If you ever need that gun, it will happen so quickly and terribly that you’ll have to be swift and sure. If you don’t, you’ll still be handling a deadly weapon in the presence of people you love. Making gun manipulation second nature – safety as well as draw-fire-hit – is thus doubly important.

Commandment VIII: Understand the fine points.
Don’t just read the headlines or editorials, read the fine print. Actually study the laws of your jurisdiction. What’s legal in one place, won’t be legal in another. Cities may have prohibitions that states don’t. Remember the principle, “ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

Commandment IX: Carry an adequate firearm.
A Vespa motor scooter is a motor vehicle, but it’s a poor excuse for a family car. A .22 or .25 is a firearm, but it’s a poor excuse for defense. Carry a gun loaded with ammunition that has a track record of quickly stopping lethal assaults. Hint: if your chosen caliber is not used by police or military, it’s probably not powerful enough for its intended purpose.

Commandment X: Use common sense.
Common sense—encompassing ethics and logic and law alike—must be your constant guide and companion when you carry a gun. Not idealism, not rhetoric. When you carry a gun, you literally carry the power of life and death. It is a power that belongs only in the hands of responsible people who care about consequences, and who are respectful of life and limb and human safety, that of others, and as well as their own.

wow... very good info.

one point you made... "I have always maintained that while carrying, I would go to the ends of my ability to walk or run away from any situation that might result in me being forced to draw my weapon up until the point where I felt my life was actually threatened"

key word, "while carrying". I can say that I definitely handle myself differently when carrying. I'm not the kind of guy that starts shit. In fact, those who know me, know I am not confrontational at all, but for some reason, I just felt it was neccessary to say something to the guy. Hell, that's the first time I've EVER responded to someone being an asshole on the road; I dont think I've ever flashed my lights or honked my horn at someone?

I used to carry a lot. I really only carry when I'm traveling with the family anymore. Now that my daughter is a little older I don't feel as comfortable doing so. Mainly because I like to keep a round chambered while carrying. While my holster is a custom "in the wasteband" style. Little fingers and toes get into everything.

A short solution is "don't chamber a round while carrying." Fair enough. I debate this with the following: If I can run, I will. Most of the reasons are listed above. I have no desire to kill someone, and I don't want the hassle of a legal battle. I am well practiced, but on a stationary target while I am stationary. I would rather not test my ability unless absolutely necessary. This is why I feel that the time that it takes to chamber a round could be the difference between life and death. I will only do it if it is an absolute last resort.

ah yes, another big debate. chamber vs. no-chamber.

Fuck yes.

I do - now just the other day my wife freaked out b/c I poiinted to where the gun was... acted as like it would magically go off and started crying and all b/c she had my 2yr old up front playing.... It's a baby 1911 so has plenty of safeties, which is why I bought it - still not child-proof though. It's getting to the point where I'll have to lock it up in the console when I'm not in the truck.

Safeties FTL they just make it harder for you to kill people

Is it the Sig P250?

ParaOrd P10 - steel version of the warthog

Those are awesome. I'm a Para fan.

x 1000.

http://www.massadayoobgroup.com

Take his "MAG-40" class. Best $1,200 or so I have ever spent. (in that sum I include my cost for lodging, food, ammo, gas to get there)

If you go, I will trade my notes from the class with your completed notes. Take the two and follow his instructions. What you do leading up to, during, and following an armed violent encounter determines where you spend the next 20 (or more) years of your life.

What has been posted on the internet never truly goes away. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Our so called "Defender of life" has such a disregard for life he posted on the 18th of October 2012 'Safeties FTL they just make it harder for you to kill people.' I contend ladies and gentlemen, that it was not self defense, but rather a desire to shed blood to prove his manliness. After all, the defendant owns a Miata."

Watch what you post about guns online - everyone.

EDIT TO ADD:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob105.html

wow, that looks like a great class. let me look into it.... thanks for the link.

Carry class is after the honeymoon next month. Both prior mil cops so should be fine. Carried in New Mexico open. Never liked it, people seem to think the guy carrying is just waiting for shit to go down. That said I like 1911's but my buddies I carried with always got heckled for the hammer up thing. Love the gun but it's more attention than I like. Definatly looking into the class ^ tho for a more civilian approach.

1911's were designed to be carried "cocked and locked". Not to mention that a hard impact on a lowered hammer on a loaded chamber can lead to a negligent discharge. Carrying without a round in the chamber assumes you will have time during an armed violent encounter to rack a round into the chamber. Essentially you are carrying an unloaded gun.

Btw, I live in Illinois so I can't carry in my home state but I carry whenever it is legal to do so. Basically, if have on pants I am armed. And I am working on the pants thing ;)

I carry because of shit like this:
http://www.wfmz.com/news/Purse-snatc...z/-/index.html
If I'm going to stock up on groceries, and someone tries to take what's not theirs, they're gonna wind up riddled with bullet holes in a wal-mart parking lot.
I actually don't carry near my house, because everybody knows everybody. I only really carry if I go into densly populated areas where crime is known to be a problem.

I know the how/why of the 1911's. It's just the general populus don't and watch to many movies. Even my girl asked me about it the first time she saw a 1911 in open carry. Most hippies just see the hammer back and want to start some your not safe or looking for shit debate. Great gun. Just not in open carry. My 2¢. Resume normal threading.

I once heard a quote that went something like, "I don't carry because I expect to need my pistol. If I expected I was going to need a firearm, I would either stay away or bring a long-arm with a bunch of buddies."

Great input, Sam. Also, kudos to smbstyle for being open to the constructive criticism and recognizing the lack of upside to his temporary and isolated instance of losing his temper over a relatively small thing.


I would add that, if I were the type that carried, I would have the name and number of a firearms-oriented attorney programmed in to my cell phone and the business card of a criminal attorney in my wallet. I would also try to familiarize myself with what to say - and what not to say - should I ever be involved in a defensive shooting scenario. I believe Massad Ayoob has some good input on this.

Normally carry my Ruger LR9 and sometimes my Kimber Ultra Carry II.

I believe Mas recommends AGAINST having a criminal attorney... Criminal attorney's are experts at defending CRIMINALS. Many criminal attorneys have no clue as to how to defend a self defense situation. I will check my notes from the class when I get home tonight.

I would think it is absolutely better to have a firearms-oriented attorney available, but they might not be readily available in all towns. My thought process was that having an attorney with you that can just keep the cops from interrogating you (even if temporarily until you can secure a better one) is better than no attorney, but maybe that is not correct?

Maybe the suggestion is to just assert your right to silence until you can have someone locate a specialist?

I am going off of memory and I haven't been as good about memorizing this as I should but... Establish yourself as the complaintant first. "That man/woman assaulted me. <point>. I defended myself. My sidearm (don't use term weapon, gun, etc... sidearm is less threatening) is on the ground/in my holster (etc). The guy's gun/knife is there, here are the shell casings. <point>. Here are witnesses that saw the whole thing. I intend to help you in whatever way possible but I am in no condition to talk. I will answer questions after I talk to an attorney."

Then, when given your "one phone call" don't call an attorney. Matter of fact, don't call your attorney right after the encounter either. If there are witnesses, do your best to enlist them under your direction doing useful things. That places YOU in their mind as their leader and the victim. Send one to secure the scene. Send one to ensure the paramedics arrive and help the guy who has been shot. Send another out into the surrounding area looking for anyone who might have also been injured...

I will stop there. I want to help best I can, but there is some info in Mas's MAG-40 that while it can keep you out of jail, it could also keep a bad guy out of jail as well. The class can truly be the thing that keeps you from living the next 30 years of your life in jail.

One last thing if you are arrested (and you may have a jerk states attorney who hates gun owners). Don't call your attorney with your "one phone call". Have a couple "trusted others" that have the phone number of your attorney, a bail bondsman, and all three of Mas' three personal cell phone numbers. It would also be a nice idea to have some money in a bank account that you can use to pay the bail bondsman so you don't have to rely on your friends and family to raise the funds. It is much easier to handle the situation when you are outside of those metal bars.

Seriously, even if you can only go to the MAG-20 (classroom only portion) of his class, I highly recommend every person that carries goes. If you take his class and pass, he will be an expert (or if you follow his directions, a material)witness on your behalf at trial.

anyone with loadout pics?

here's my shit

Attachment 186731

Of everything? I'd need a wider lens.

bitch, I'd crash photobucket.

I'm talking your every day loadout. I've been rotating the FSN out with my Glock 35 a lot lately.

So the AR goes with you every day?

it's always within reach

yeah with the .22 long's that it chambers...

you are a smart guy

Attachment 186730

I carry 100% of the time when I am out of the house EXCEPT in places where it is illegal to carry or at work. I only wear jeans and a tucked in t-shirt (except when I where jorts and a tucked in t-shirt) so I pocket carry my jam-free after 2000 rounds Keltec P32.

Go here to take your class in SC:

http://www.belttraining.com/

the pocket is quite possibly the only place worse than the ankle

For those who haven't ever been exposed to this, here's a good quality repost:

And yet the nightstand drawer or gunsafe in the closet is worse than both of those.

Florida is a "no-tell" state. After having some asshole cop almost discharge my Glock 20 into my chest while "unloading it for [his] own safety", I'm going to exercise my right to not tell them shit.

sure, let me just maneuver my hand through my jean pocket, under previously unfelt levels of stress, while you shoot me in the face

I agree but it is where I carry. If I had to carry somewhere else I probably would leave it at home (or just not ever leave the house). I am not going to stuff a 1911 in my waistband. Too much damn hassle. I've got a 32 gun in my pocket for fun and a razor in my shoe.

Apologies to Jim Croce.

you aren't a small person, you should have no issue concealing a mid-sized auto. I have no problem carrying my Glock 35 with its overall length above 8"

F you and your 9mm AR. Who buys an AR in a 9mm anyway? Why didn't you just go buy a high point 9mm and save yourself the coin?

you really are a retard, aren't you?

Have you tried a hybrid holster?

I have a Comp-tac MTAC leather/kydex holster that practically disappears. I carry a Ruger SR9c and I only notice I am carrying when sitting in a hard backed chair.

www.comp-tac.com (MTAC)
www.concealmentsolutions.com (black mamba and sidewinder)
www.crossbreedholsters.com (supertuck deluxe)

That does not help me with a tucked in t-shirt.

Criteria for my CCW:
1) Must be light so my pants don't fall down.
2) Can't be poking me in the back or front when I sit down.
3) Can't be seen when my shirt is tucked in.
4) Has to be used with jeans and a t-shirt.

The only option I can think of is what I have. The lightest smallest gun made stuck into a holster (to keep the lint off it and my finger off the trigger) and then into my front pocket. I forget it is there most of the time. When I "need" it (filling up for gas late at night) I put my hand in my pocket and am ready to go. I practice drawing from that position and firing three shots without aiming (gun is actually in front of my belly button with both hands on it when I do this). I hit a target 5-7 yards away three times in the chest without thinking about it. I carry with a round in the chamber ready to go (gun has no safety on it). I feel completely comfortable with this setup (gun, method of carry, technique for shooting). The gun does have a laser on it for aiming if I needed it (sights are very weak on this weapon but are usable on the range).

http://www.lightweightmiata.com/projects/p32/p3201.JPG

Laser is activated by holding down the button below the mag release. My middle finger naturally depresses it when holding the gun so turning it on is automatic.

Do I wish it was a 45? Yes, of course I do but it is what it is. 7+1 of 32 ACP that I shoot fairly well and fairly quickly.

I need to get my permit. I have practiced the shooting test a few times and it seemed pretty easy at the range. I won't say I've carried without a permit before, but I have tested a number of holster options for my Glock 26 and figured out what does and down not work for me on an all day carry basis.

I'm a skinny guy, 5'10", so I can't get away with carrying a full-sized pistol without it printing really bad. One reason I do enjoy the Winter months is the use of jackets and coats. I can almost get away with slinging my 18" Mossy 500 around my back under a coat haha.

I think you've made a perfectly rational decision and agree with you, especially since you actually take the time to practice drawing and firing from that carry method. I would also be surprised if the average permit holder could lift a tucked-in t-shirt, draw, bring the weapon on-target and fire quicker than someone who already has their hand on their firearm (front pocket carry, which I would prefer over back pocket).

A carry permit is like insurance. All insurance carries a cost, but some of the benefit of insurance is psychological rather than financial (i.e. "peace of mind"). You can be over-insured such that the costs outweigh the perceived potential probability of recieving the reward.

Robert could sacrifice comfort, completely change his wardrobe, etc in order to carry something larger or he could go with the best serviceable compromise. For example: If I chose to daily carry, based on my build, wardrobe choices, environment, etc I would likely have a Ruger LCP with quality defensive rounds in a front pocket holster after trying something like a Kahr PM9 or even a Sig P229R Elite in Crossbreed Super-Tuck IWB holsters. Hypothetically.