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Old 05-29-2008, 12:42 PM   #1
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Default For those who think FM is too expensive...

Lately, I've been doing some research on turbocharging motorcycles. Not because I plan to do mine (it's only an SV650, for crying out loud) but because at some point in the future I'd like to build a car with a mid-mount M/C engine. Something similar to the Ariel Atom, only not so big and heavy.


So I've been killing some time looking at what others are doing with the big 1300cc+ inline fours, primarily the Hayabusa and the ZX14. Turns out there are a couple of companies that build complete turbo kits for those bikes, just like FM and Bell do for the MX5.


Here's one for the ZX14, by Mr. Turbo. It costs $5,000, and engine management consists of a non-adjustable RRFPR and a device similar to a powercard:
http://www.mrturbo.com/turbo_systems...x14%20old.html


Here are some from Muzzy's: http://www.muzzys.com/ZX14/ZX14Turbo/index.html From these folks, $5,000 gets you no fuel management of any kind- that's extra. Hell, they're asking $3,300 for just the manifold, turbo, WG and DP! (and the downpipe is only about 6" long)


Of course, there's the infamous BigCC racing. Here's their entry-level system for the 'Busa: http://www.bigccracing.com/shop/prod...5&source=thumb
"only" 2,995 (that's $5,900 and rising for us colonials) and check this out- their fuel management is a BEGI AFPR. As usual, the "power commander" piggyback is extra.

The "Full-on" kit from these ******* is 10,573 ($20,884) and you guessed it, "Please note the Motec engine management package is additional but must be used with this configuration for best results."
http://www.bigccracing.com/shop/prod...5&source=thumb


Just astounding how much some folks are willing to pay...
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Old 05-29-2008, 12:47 PM   #2
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I can't believe anyone paying that much, hell, a local fabricator can build you a monster for half that.
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:14 PM   #3
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holy ****, a gt40r on a scooter?
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:17 PM   #4
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In the full scheme of aftermarket tuner companies FM's prices are reasonable for most of their stuff, especially their turbo kits. It's just that I am a cheapass.
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
In the full scheme of aftermarket tuner companies FM's prices are reasonable for most of their stuff, especially their turbo kits. It's just that I am a cheapass.
Exactly, Lotus Elise/Exige stuff is 12k+ for turbo setups.

Don't even get started on high end **** like Lambo's and Ferrari's.
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:38 PM   #6
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in all fairness i'm pretty sure the power commander is more sophisticated than a powerdcard. It's laptop programmable with fuel maps and some models ignition too. besides usually people with motorcycles have some degree of expendible money and those willing to turbocharge them usually have endless money
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:40 PM   #7
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joe, this motorcycle powered vehicle you're pondering, what would you do for a transmission/gearing?
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:04 PM   #8
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I think their turbo kit is pretty reasonably priced, just like bell's **** which is more expensive because you get more. I pretty much buy from whoever is cheapest...if the price difference is reasonable, I'll pay a little more to go through a company that I know won't turn into an ordeal with credit card disputes and bullshit like that.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
holy ****, a gt40r on a scooter?
Yup. These guys are pretty much complete nutters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddroptop View Post
Exactly, Lotus Elise/Exige stuff is 12k+ for turbo setups.
Yeah, I get to listen to a couple of my BMW-owning neighbors (5 and 7 series) talk about the various hop-up kits available for their cars, not just F/I, but suspension and the like as well. The prices that they throw around are just insanely astronomical compared to what the exact same components cost in a Miata-specific (or worse, Honda-specific) fitment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach929 View Post
in all fairness i'm pretty sure the power commander is more sophisticated than a powerdcard.
I should have said PCPro, I expect. It is, of course, better than a MegaSquirt. In all seriousness however, PCPro and PowerCommander appear to be more or less equal in capability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach929 View Post
joe, this motorcycle powered vehicle you're pondering, what would you do for a transmission/gearing?
Well, the transmission is built into the engine, and frankly that's one of the primary reasons for choosing M/C power- I love sequential gearboxes. The problem then becomes how to take the output of the gearbox and couple it to an automotive-grade differential.

The "ideal, wet my pants just thinking about it" solution is this device, which is a combination gear-driven transfer case, reverser, reduction gear, and limited-slip diff in one:

Link: http://www.quaife.co.uk/Quaife-Power...r-drive-system



A less expensive alternative would be to retain the chain drive, and use this diff, which is sealed and designed for mounting in the open, supported by a couple of industrial pillow blocks. Reverse would have to be implemented by a gear reduced electric motor, either engaging a ring gear on the non-driven side of the diff, or driving a small sprocket which can be raised and lowed to selectively engage the chain itself.

Link: http://www.quaife.co.uk/Chain-drive-...B-differential




Lastly, they've got a new one out, that may or may not hold promise. Similar to the above, but with a built-in reversing mechanism. I've not read much about it, or seen it mounted on a vehicle:

Link: http://www.quaife.co.uk/Quaife-Power...g-differential



Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler
I think their turbo kit is pretty reasonably priced, just like bell's **** which is more expensive because you get more.
Shouldn't you be off somewhere writing homoerotic stories about the time your great grandmother found you and your younger cousin naked at the back of the Synagogue along with a bowl of Jell-o?
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:03 PM   #10
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joe alot of the 80's liter bikes had shaft drive man just adapt that technology and you are done. Making it shift right will take abit of enginuity though.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:13 PM   #11
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what are you talking about, a huge number of modern bikes are shaft drive. almost all metric cruisers 1L or greater displacement are shaft drive--to include like the last 3 hondas I've owned. In fact, of all the bikes I've had only 2 were chain drive (1 was a sport bike).

My dad's 'wing is shaft drive with electric reverse
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:38 PM   #12
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**** Goldwings, and **** all the rest of the Metric Cruisers. I said I wanted a good transmission, not a bunch of tractor cogs poured into a box and shaken around.

In all seriousness, I'm well-aware of the shaft-drive bikes, as I've also researched the BMW K1200 series, both the older longitudinal designs, and the newer transverse S and R engines. There are a number of reasons that I do not favor the shaft-drive configuration.

First, the offset output shaft, while ideal for a single paralever motorcycle drive, would not lend itself well to a properly centered diff in a 4 wheel application.

Second, the overall length of such an arrangement (motor, gearbox, propshaft, automotive-grade diff) would be somewhat greater than the comparable arrangement of a a traditional chain-drive engine, whether one chose to retain the chain mechanism or replace it with a gear-driven transfer case.

Third, I cannot figure out how one would arrange a reversing mechanism on a shaft-drive system. You would be forced to use an engine/transmission combo from a bike which originally had reverse, such as the K1200LT, which is overweight, underpowered, and not very rev-happy.

No, the donor bike will be a hypersport model. If not the 'Busa or the ZX14, then whatever equivalent exists five or six years from now when I'm actually ready to pull the trigger. Theoretically the Stratosphere should be in production by then.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:46 PM   #13
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Shaft drive is good but you find it only in motorcycles which have bhp/liter approaching that of cars, rather than twice that, which is only found in the supersports and liter bikes.

Joe I have a project similar to yours in mind, but I live in an apartment right now and have no money. Once I get that $70k job after I graduate in August I intend to start. I want to make something that is built to a liberal rule book, so I am leaning towards SCCA 'D' Sports racing rules. A lot of room there to play with electronically controlled systems.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:00 PM   #14
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No, I don't think shaft drive is a good choice for your project. I was just 'splainin' to Magna that it's a concept that is alive and well.

I've never had a metric cruiser with a bad gearbox. And while the 'wing may not be a good bike for you or I, my 63 year old father loves his. He's had his share of 'lesser' bikes and now needs something smooth, quiet, and comfy. With a CD changer. And a CB. And reverse. And an air compressor. ....
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:29 PM   #15
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http://super7cars.com/Super7_R-Type_Hayabusa.html

I wonder what they use for a trans?
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:13 PM   #16
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They use hayabusa transmission with separate quaife reverse box. Typically 2 driveshafts are used between motor and differential and the reverse box acts as an intermittent bearing in the middle.
Clutch needs beefier springs.

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Old 05-29-2008, 05:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
Joe I have a project similar to yours in mind, but I live in an apartment right now and have no money. Once I get that $70k job after I graduate in August I intend to start.
Yeah, I'm in the exact opposite scenario. This week I resigned from a $100k job and I'm about to go back to college full-time for three years. After graduation I look forward to being poor and transient for a while, and after that I'll need to build a garage. So I'm figuring a minimum five to six year delay until the project can begin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
I've never had a metric cruiser with a bad gearbox. And while the 'wing may not be a good bike for you or I, my 63 year old father loves his. He's had his share of 'lesser' bikes and now needs something smooth, quiet, and comfy. With a CD changer. And a CB. And reverse. And an air compressor. ....
Ok, the tractor cogs comment was a bit much. But you hit it on the nose: bikes with shaft-drive powerplants tend to be big and heavy. Not what I'm looking for. I want lightweight, and as an added bonus it'd be nice if it revved to 14,000 RPM just for the noise that makes,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
http://super7cars.com/Super7_R-Type_Hayabusa.html

I wonder what they use for a trans?
I'm only going to say this one more time:

All sportbike engines have built-in transmissions.

The engine and transmission are the same box. Thus, since the Super7 is using a Hayabusa engine, it is by definition using a Hayabusa transmission. In that car (and all the other M/C engined sevens) the engine is turned front-to-back (like a Miata) and a driveshaft is fixed to the output shaft of the transmission. In series with this, a reversing box is placed, such as this one: http://www.quaife.co.uk/Quaife-reversing-box Then a second dirveshaft goes from the reversing box to a standard automotive diff.

I'm looking at a mid-engine, transverse layout design. Thus, there will be no driveshaft, and the differential will not be a standard automotive type.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:48 PM   #18
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I don't blame you. If you are going to build one go with inline-4. That is what I like. But Yamaha and honda have some huge Boy cruisers that make up for horsepower in torque. And they have alot of Hp too. They are mean.

But if you could come along the newest version of the busa motor. You will have one crazy machine. You could buy a ZX14 motor cheaper. But the new parts are always higher on Kawasaki.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:11 PM   #19
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Yes, aftermarket parts support for the 'Busa is somewhat better- it's basically the B18 engine of the motorcycle world.

The problem with the 'Busa motor is that when it's placed into a car, the oil pickup tends to become uncovered during sustained cornering or sustained acceleration, depending upon orientation. Those applications where the motor is used typically retrofit either a dry-sump system or a custom baffled oilpan onto the engine, and both of these options are very costly. Add to that the fact that the ZX14 makes more torque in stock trim, and it seems like a winner.

Since the engine in such an application is, quite frankly, is a consumable item, the goal would be to build the system in such a way as to minimize the modifications required to the internals. I would basically envision using a head-gasket spacer to lower compression, and H-beam rods (which will be easily re-usable from one engine to the next) and leaving everything else alone.
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
All sportbike engines have built-in transmissions.
So... let me make sure I understand this correctly... the engine INCLUDES the transmission? Are you sure?

j/k I have two bikes, one of which is an SV650 set up for race duty. I would love to have a turboed liter bike engine in a Miata chassis. The sound alone as you mentioned would be amazing. I had also seen the pricing on the bike turbo kits and could not believe how expensive they were
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