Totally hypothetical question about our engine - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Closed Thread
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-03-2008, 05:18 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default Totally hypothetical question about our engine

What would happen if one were to install a Weber carb instead of the intake manifold, raised compression to 11:1, installed a stroker kit, changed out the cams for more lift, and kept the stock ignition system?

How hard would it be to get it to run?, will it run?, what kinda power can be expected? Would it not be cool if stuffed into a Westfield?
Saml01 is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:26 PM   #2
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 502
Total Cats: 0
Default

sounds like a question for clubroadster.net
drewbroo is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:28 PM   #3
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

A weber carb (I assume you're talking about the DCOE) would make life more complicated than it needs to be, specially if you have no experience tuning one. It is all too easy to end up with a car that has worse power AND gas mileage than a fuel-injected version of the same engine. Ask me, I spent most of my youth tuning webers and similar monstrosities. With a wideband (which I didnt have at the time), I imagine it could be a lot simpler though.

But the bigger question is, why webers? Why not a proper IR setup if the "feel" of a weber is all you're after?
The_Pipefather is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:32 PM   #4
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
A weber carb (I assume you're talking about the DCOE) would make life more complicated than it needs to be, specially if you have no experience tuning one. It is all too easy to end up with a car that has worse power AND gas mileage than a fuel-injected version of the same engine. Ask me, I spent most of my youth tuning webers and similar monstrosities. With a wideband (which I didnt have at the time), I imagine it could be a lot simpler though.

But the bigger question is, why webers? Why not a proper IR setup if the "feel" of a weber is all you're after?
I just said Weber, instead of Carb. It could just as well be a Edelbrock or similar.
Saml01 is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:43 PM   #5
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

why would you want a carb at all is my question. it is worse in every way imaginable.
The_Pipefather is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:47 PM   #6
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
why would you want a carb at all is my question. it is worse in every way imaginable.
For the retro-ness.

Its hard to explain, but carbs give engines a different character then fuel injection. Not everything is about power.

Totally hypothetical stuff, I just want to hear how the engine will act and perform differently. Since this would go into a westfield which is an old british roadster it should feel like one.

Last edited by Saml01; 09-03-2008 at 06:16 PM.
Saml01 is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:19 PM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 2,957
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
1. What would happen if one were to install a Weber carb instead of the intake manifold, raised compression to 11:1, installed a stroker kit, changed out the cams for more lift, and kept the stock ignition system?

2. How hard would it be to get it to run?,
3. will it run?,
4. what kinda power can be expected?
5. Would it not be cool if stuffed into a Westfield?
1. Said person would be insta-banned.
2. Who cares.
3. Who cares.
4. Less.
5. Yes, it would not be cool stuffed into a Westfield.
paul is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:33 PM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

I have your dream car. Read: 86' Isuzu Trooper II with a WEBER CONVERSION!!!!!!11!11 Only 225,000 miles on the body. Carb is less than 1 year old! (though the accelerator pump diaphragm blew out so it drips gas all the time, and the idle circuit is dirty again). It runs fair! Well it's cooling off so it needs the idle circuit richened up a bit after you clean it out. Oh and seeing how it's mechanical secondary power sucks below 2500 if you floor it. But hey it sound cool and that's ALL that matters.

Anyways I'll trade you it for your miata.
patsmx5 is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:50 PM   #9
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Totally hypothetical stuff, I just want to hear how the engine will act and perform differently. Since this would go into a westfield which is an old british roadster it should feel like one.
1) It will not cold start if the weather is 20F cooler than when you tuned the idle and off-idle circuits.

2) It will buck and spit raw fuel out the intakes (how COOL is that??) if you dont warm it up for exactly 2 minutes in warm weather before driving. 5 minutes in michigan-type weather, if it starts at all.

3) You will need to invest in a good set of jumper cables for obvious reason.

4) You will get exactly 15 mpg with the combo you described on a 45 DCOE.

Retro enough?
The_Pipefather is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 07:08 PM   #10
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Hehehe.

Indeed, sidedraft conversions have been done, both Weber and Dellorto. I can recall seeing a few posted at CR, at M.net, and I think I even saw one here.

Obviously, there are a lot of engines out in the world running such setups, and it's not like installing a pair of Webers is going to immediately give you polio and herpes and cause you to forget how to pronounce the word "asparagus."

On the other hand, the pipefather speaks truthfully. Back when I was into air-cooled VWs, a pair of Weber IDFs (usually 40 or 44mm) was considered "The" fueling solution to have. And while, with a pair of well designed heads, they could indeed produce some serious power, they were in the grand scheme of things quite rotten to live with.

Tuning and synchronizing four independant carbeurators is indeed a pain in the ***, and the IDFs (which are virtually identical to the DCOEs) do not like it when the weather changes. So basically, you wind up running over-rich all the time, to accommodate the worst-case scenario. Additionally, they have no chokes, so cold-starting is difficult, and you have to let them warm up for quite a while before you can really think about driving.

I'll agree that for a Westie, there is a certain retro charm to a sidedraft system. Install an IRTB setup. Even us dumb ole' airheads finally learned that fuel injection can be out friend. CB Performance (one of the Big Names in air-cooled VW performance) sells a kit based on throttle bodies that are essentially a clone of the Weber 48IDA body, but without the internals. If you want to really be cool, buy a set of these and mount them injector side down: http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=412

Joe Perez is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 07:19 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ABQ, NM
Posts: 1,850
Total Cats: -8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
What would happen if one were to install a Weber carb instead of the intake manifold, raised compression to 11:1, installed a stroker kit, changed out the cams for more lift, and kept the stock ignition system?

How hard would it be to get it to run?, will it run?, what kinda power can be expected? Would it not be cool if stuffed into a Westfield?


It would be very similar to a E-Production motor.
BenR is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 07:47 PM   #12
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,780
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

I believe there was a miata of the month on miata.net a while back that had the car conversion. I would check that and then see if you could get in contact with the guy who did it.
shuiend is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #13
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

Thanks for the info. All this stuff is purely hypothetical, just for my education.

If I ever get a westfield, which I really want and am considering in the long term, I would probably keep the engine the way it is.
Saml01 is offline  
Old 09-03-2008, 08:41 PM   #14
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

this thread is really really REALLY gay
Ben is offline  
 
 
Closed Thread

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 151 06-02-2017 03:36 PM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM
VR6 to Miata Swap ScrapinMX5 Meet and Greet 8 09-28-2015 02:04 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:24 AM.