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Old 05-12-2011, 12:31 PM   #21
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Or maybe he's out looking for a girlfriend that will cook for him
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:30 PM   #22
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
I find this to be a rare instance where Joe has started a thread and not had any followup or input within the first 15 posts. You OK Joe?
Hmmm.

I was really looking for more of a "Yes, I have successfully prepared Swanson-brand TV dinners in the plastic tray in my toaster over" or "No, don't do this, the tray will, in fact, melt due to the close proximity of the heating element" or something along this lines.

You know, something simple. Not a lecture on the merits of fresh foods, the benefits of marriage, and the joy of cooking. Writing lengthy and verbose diatribes in response to simple questions is MY job, not y'alls.


Last night in my garage, I was eyeballing a sheet of HDPE that I have left over from an old suspension project (the same material I used in the thermostat video to isolate the thermostats from the glass) but I looked up the melting temperature of that stuff and it's far lower than I'd have expected; 120 to 130 °C.

Transferring the food into another container would be relatively impractical, as those little tiny portions of frozen corn and frozen mixed vegetables probably wouldn't want to all stay in one place. It's also more effort than I want to expend. Never under-estimate the enormous lengths to which an engineer will go in order to save 30 seconds' work.

No offense, Matt, but buying a new appliance also sort of offends my sensibilities. I've had this toaster oven for close to 15 years. It and I have a lot of good memories together. I paid good money for it (it was at least $12 if I recall correctly, and that was in the late 90s, when money was worth something), and I think it still has a lot of service left in it. I already own two small kitchen appliances (the toaster oven and the sandwich press) and two appliances ought to be enough for anybody.


Perhaps glass is the answer. Or to be more precise, ceramic. I do own a ceramic baking dish which I absolutely never use. (I don't even know where it came from. I'd have never purchased such a thing.) If I can figure out how to score it and then break the sides off so that I have a flat sheet of ceramic material, that would probably solve the problem of direct, incident heat causing localized hotspots.


Torkel, I actually do prepare a fair amount of pasta. Gnocchi with pesto is a particular favorite.



Actually, you know what? **** it all. I am going to be a rebel. I am going to live dangerously, damn the torpedoes. I am going to grab reality by the short-n-curly hairs and shake it for all that it's worth. I am going to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life.

Tonight, I am going to cook a frozen meal in the toaster oven.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:57 PM   #24
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I find this to be a rare instance where Joe has started a thread and not had any followup or input within the first 15 posts. You OK Joe?
Rhetorical post, perhaps?

Or maybe he is suspended, mid-air, in a thin metal tube.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:59 PM   #25
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I hope you enjoy melted plastic.


been there done that.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:05 PM   #26
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Come on, Joe. You know very well that knowledge gained through trial and hideous, life-threatening failure is the most profound and lasting. This is why men are not supposed to read the instructions.
I suggest making sure any fire extinguishers are locked in your car's trunk before cranking up the toaster oven.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:15 PM   #27
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Perhaps glass is the answer.

As I already stated. From one (former) bachelor engineer to another, just get one and be done with it.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
See post #7



It's quite the logistical quagmire for ya, Joe. I can't think of a solution that doesn't require moving the contents from the pastic container to one suitable for a toaster oven...or to buy a new appliance that allows you to cook the food without removing it from it's container.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Hmmm.

I was really looking for more of a "Yes, I have successfully prepared Swanson-brand TV dinners in the plastic tray in my toaster over" or "No, don't do this, the tray will, in fact, melt due to the close proximity of the heating element" or something along this lines.

You know, something simple. Not a lecture on the merits of fresh foods, the benefits of marriage, and the joy of cooking. Writing lengthy and verbose diatribes in response to simple questions is MY job, not y'alls.


Last night in my garage, I was eyeballing a sheet of HDPE that I have left over from an old suspension project (the same material I used in the thermostat video to isolate the thermostats from the glass) but I looked up the melting temperature of that stuff and it's far lower than I'd have expected; 120 to 130 °C.

Transferring the food into another container would be relatively impractical, as those little tiny portions of frozen corn and frozen mixed vegetables probably wouldn't want to all stay in one place. It's also more effort than I want to expend. Never under-estimate the enormous lengths to which an engineer will go in order to save 30 seconds' work.

No offense, Matt, but buying a new appliance also sort of offends my sensibilities. I've had this toaster oven for close to 15 years. It and I have a lot of good memories together. I paid good money for it (it was at least $12 if I recall correctly, and that was in the late 90s, when money was worth something), and I think it still has a lot of service left in it. I already own two small kitchen appliances (the toaster oven and the sandwich press) and two appliances ought to be enough for anybody.


Perhaps glass is the answer. Or to be more precise, ceramic. I do own a ceramic baking dish which I absolutely never use. (I don't even know where it came from. I'd have never purchased such a thing.) If I can figure out how to score it and then break the sides off so that I have a flat sheet of ceramic material, that would probably solve the problem of direct, incident heat causing localized hotspots.


Torkel, I actually do prepare a fair amount of pasta. Gnocchi with pesto is a particular favorite.



Actually, you know what? **** it all. I am going to be a rebel. I am going to live dangerously, damn the torpedoes. I am going to grab reality by the short-n-curly hairs and shake it for all that it's worth. I am going to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life.

Tonight, I am going to cook a frozen meal in the toaster oven.
<quoted all because i'm not sure which i'm repyling to.>

If you want to avoid melting the plastic by near-proximity radiation from the heating elements, put a shield in there. I'd suggest getting a tiny pizza stone or better yet in JOE FASHION, a $.99 one foot square of quarry stone. Make sure it's one of the UNglazed and kiln baked kind.

Then you'll be the envy of everyone when you make your mini pizzas and heat your tasty treats.

I imagine it'll diffuse the heat nicely.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...859004992.html
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Old 05-12-2011, 04:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Transferring the food into another container would be relatively impractical, as those little tiny portions of frozen corn and frozen mixed vegetables probably wouldn't want to all stay in one place. It's also more effort than I want to expend. Never under-estimate the enormous lengths to which an engineer will go in order to save 30 seconds' work.
It's all in the technique.

1: Run some hot tap water over the inverted, yet still-sealed frozen meal. Just enough to loosen the food from each little cubby.

2: Flip meal so that the top side is once again on top. Unseal it.

3: Place appropriately-sized non-plastic dish on the counter. Carry the frozen meal over to the dish and hover over top.

4: Flip frozen meal. Smash onto non-plastic dish. Then remove the plastic container. If you accomplish this with sufficient dexterity, you should have each item on the new serving dish and not scattered around your kitchen.

5: Cook in toaster oven like a boss.
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Old 05-13-2011, 03:47 AM   #31
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In an effort to uphold my longstanding tradition of creating needlessly verbose and didactic responses to uncomplicated, everyday situations (a responsibility which I feel that I have, of late, neglected) I offer the following thesis:


On the evening of 12 May 2011, I convened an emergency session of the Higham Institute Study Group on the Abuses of Common Kitchen Materials to investigate the viability of preparing prepackaged frozen meals (aka TV dinners) in a compact toaster oven.

This act is generally held to be in contravention of both common sense and the manufacturers' directions applicable to the preparation of such meals, owing to the supposed unsuitability of the underlying packaging substrate (the "tray") commonly employed to enforce the separation of complementary but dissimilar food items from one another as well as from the surrounding environment during the transportation, preparation and consumption phases of their lifecycle. Nevertheless, a dilemma exists concerning the desire to retain the surface-crispiness of chicken and other breaded foodstuffs during the terminal preparation phase of the meal's lifecycle versus a growing worldwide consciousness vis-ā-vis conservation of energy resources, with a specific emphasis on the energy expended in the preparation of the meal.

At present, the only officially-sanctioned alternative to the use of microwave ovens in this context requires that large radiant-heat ovens be employed. Such usage is tremendously wasteful, as the internal capacity of such ovens (typically in the 5-7 cubic foot range) generally exceeds the volume of the dish being prepared by ratios of 120:1 or more. Their operation in this manner, then, might fairly be compared to the use of a large commercial vehicle (such as a Boeing 747 aircraft, The RMS Queen Mary, or a typical Sport-Utility Vehicle) for the purpose of transporting a single cup of gourmet coffee and a small dog, an act which is increasingly the subject of considerably public scrutiny.

For this experiment, two commonly-available prepackaged frozen dinners were analyzed; a Boston-Market brand "Sweet and Sour Chicken with Rice" dish, and a Swanson "Home Style Meatloaf with Mashed Potatoes and Vegetable" dish. Shown below are the relevant warnings affixed to each package, respectively:






Prior to engaging in this analysis, both dinner trays were emptied of their contents and cleaned, an activity performed several days prior to the commencement of the investigation. The prepared and cleaned trays are illustrated below, along with the other materials employed in this test. Clockwise from top-left is the Swanson product tray, a roll of heavy-duty aluminum foil, a small baking sheet, and the Boston-Market product tray. In this picture, the baking sheet has already been prepared for the first test by wrapping in foil as a protective agent:



Not shown here is a Rival brand toaster oven, model # TO450, with a rated capacity 1200 watts and employing two resistive heating elements, arranged longitudinally across the upper and lower surfaces of the cooking chamber.



Two additional trays, identical in composition to the two trays under test, were prepared in a likewise manner for use as a control group. During the testing process, the control group was stored in the same kitchen as the test group, at a distance of roughly seven feet from the oven and at an identical elevation and orientation:





It should be noted at this point that prior to their selection for use in this test regimen, all four of the trays involved (both of the control group trays as well as both of the test group trays) had been subjected to a full heating cycle consistent with the manufacturer's specified preparation instructions. This exposure was performed inside of a large electric oven of the type described in paragraph 3 of this report "large radiant-heat ovens", specifically a GE model JBS07MWW 220v freestanding electric range with an internal capacity of 5.0 cubic feet.

After this exposure, each of the trays were emptied, permitted to cool, and then rinsed with tap water supplied by the local municipal distributor.

The assignment of trays to each of the two groups was made essentially at random, based upon the order in which they were withdrawn from the recycling container adjacent to the laboratory. As no tray exhibited any notable deformation or state-change as a result of this process as compared to an unheated tray, and considerable anecdotal evidence exists to support the suitability of the GE oven for this task, the GE oven shall be considered to be the Reference Oven for the purposes of this analysis.




Before the trays were subjected to thermal stimulation, a simple visual analysis was conducted to determine the composition of each. In the image below, the Boston-Market tray (left) can be seen to bear a Resin Identification Code of 5, indicating that it is constructed of Polypropylene, a common thermoplastic polymer used in a wide variety of applications including packaging, textiles (e.g. ropes, thermal underwear and carpets), stationery, plastic parts and reusable containers of various types, laboratory equipment, loudspeakers, automotive components, and polymer banknotes.

The Swanson tray (right) bears a Resin Identification Code of 1, indicating that it is made from Polyethylene Terephthalate, a member of the polyester family which is most commonly associated with plastic beverage containers, owing to its high degree of impermeability by gasses such as carbon dioxide.






Having concluded the passive phase of the analysis, it was time to begin the active phase. First, the Swanson tray was placed onto the prepared baking sheet, and the tray-sheet assembly installed into the toaster oven.






The toaster oven's thermostatic control was set to an indicated 350°F, a temperature chosen to correspond to the recommended preparation temperature of the dish. The oven was then energized, and an external digital timer (not shown) set to a duration of twenty minutes (the recommended baking time for this dish being 35 minutes). The following photograph was made absent any external illumination, at an exposure of 1/4 second, F2.0, ISO 640, in order to provide an exaggerated illustration of the oven's internal workings:






After approximately three minutes, a strong and noxious odor was noted in the vicinity of the testing area. At this point, the oven was immediately de-energized and the baking sheet removed from it. Despite the extremely short duration of the test, the tray exhibited certain obvious physical characteristics which were consistent with failure:






The test apparatus was permitted to cool while all available exterior apertures of the laboratory were opened to encourage prompt dissipation of the unknown outgassing product which was noted previously.

Once the apparatus had reached room temperature, an attempt was made to separate the tray from the baking sheet. This attempt was unsuccessful, as the tray had become fused with the protective foil, and thus, the combination of tray and foil were jointly separated from the baking sheet and set aside. The baking sheet was then re-lined with a new article of foil, and prepared for the second test.




Next, the Boston-Market tray was placed onto the sheet, the apparatus loaded into the oven, and the oven re-energized. The temperature setpoint was left unchanged from the previous run, and the external timer was set to a duration of five minutes.






During this run, constant visual contact was maintained with the unit under test by looking through the partially transparent glass door of the oven. After slightly more than one minute, an obvious state-change was observed, prompting the test to be aborted. The oven was again de-energized and the specimen removed so that a more detailed observation could be made.






Initial observation suggested that the Boston Market tray had failed in a manner similar to that observed in the Swanson tray. After the apparatus cooled to room-temperature, however, the deformed tray was able to be easily lifted from the foil, suggesting that it had not undergone as thorough a phase-change as the first specimen.




It is speculated that subjecting this tray to a longer-duration thermal stimulation might produce a more complex failure, however it was judged that the threshold for baseline failure had already been exceeded, and that further stimulation would not yield meaningful data. It should also be noted that no data is available as to whether or not the Boston Market tray produced significant outgassing of noxious fumes as it failed, as the observer's capacity for detection had been too severely compromised by the first test, necessitating the application of Rum as an analgesic agent.




Finally, the two trays comprising the control group were again observed:



No change was detectable in the shape, texture, odor, or malleability of the control group relative to their state prior to the onset of the test. Each tray from the control group was then placed onto the baking sheet and inserted into the now-cool oven, and left there for a period of five minutes before being withdrawn. (The oven remained in a non-energized state during this entire process.) As before, no changes to any of the analyzed characteristics were observed in the trays of the control group.



Based on these findings, it is the conclusion of the Study Group that both of the observable structural failures of the trays in the test group are attributable to the unique environment inside the energized Rival compact toaster oven as compared to that of the energized Reference Oven. As the characteristics of the Rival oven are considered to be typical of all ovens of the subset "toaster, compact", the Group recommends that ovens of this class shall not be specified for the preparation of prepackaged frozen meals which are contained in trays of the type studied herein.
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:12 AM   #32
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No GG-3883 put into the test chamber?!?!?
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:46 AM   #33
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Joe, I see these in your near future



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Old 05-13-2011, 07:28 AM   #34
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I hope you enjoy melted plastic.


been there done that.
Entertaining, and yes.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:43 AM   #35
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It should also be noted that no data is available as to whether or not the Boston Market tray produced significant outgassing of noxious fumes as it failed, as the observer's capacity for detection had been too severely compromised by the first test, necessitating the application of Rum as an analgesic agent.

Hahaha! I outgassed when I read this.



Thanks for your effort in the name of science.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:05 AM   #36
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Joe, can you re-do these tests with a sheet of aluminum foil placed flat atop the plastic trays?


...

I will note here for the sake of Joe's gourmet inklings that there is a temperature threshold responsible for the brown and crispy appearance of the oven-cooked foods that is not present when the microwave is used.

This temperature is the range in which the Maillard reaction (a chemical reaction between sugars and amino acids that results in browning) occurs reliably.

The threshold value is approximately 350 degrees for the average foodstuff. You'll note that when you bake cookies, those that are not required to brown (soft sugar cookies for example) will have oven temperatures below this value and those that are required to brown (chocolate chip) use temperatures slightly higher.

The same holds true for other foods. Your thanksgiving turkey for example will always be browning when roasted above the threshold.

Since the microwave does not directly heat but uses molecular excitation of lipids, sugars, and water to generate heat, it is more difficult to achieve the required browning temperature. You'll find that some manufacturers provide foil sleeves (hot pockets) to provide a metallic sleeve (MUCH less mass than aluminum foil) to provide sufficient radiant heat to exceed the Maillard transition temperature.

There are even companies that provide thin-foil-lined "microwave cooking bags" for this purpose. You could also save up your hot pocket sleeves and build a browning tent.

But I should warn you-- the melting point of that plastic will be approached or exceeded by attaining the maillard reaction temperature.

Further science: you can test the Maillard reaction temperature by placing slices of white bread in your oven at temperatures above and below 350 to verify the temperature yourself. Hint: Toaster oven makes brown toast brown because it's above that temperature.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:19 AM   #37
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Excellent write up for an incredibly over-engineered test. You could have prepared a weeks worth of TV dinners on proper cookware in the time it took to do that.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:57 AM   #38
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There are a couple of things a bachelor should be able to cook.

1. Chili, put browned meat, vegetables, and a powdered chillie package in a crockpot and put it on high until it starts to boil 3-4hrs, put it on low until you go to bed that night and put all the rest in the fridge.

2. Frito Chili Pie, goggle it

3. Mexican Chicken Casserole, take cream of mushroom soup and rotel and mix in bowl (it looks like puke), then take your cooked chicken pieces and mix in with the puke, put some doritos whole and crushed in bottom of casserole dish, pour some of your chicken mix over the dorito's, repeat until dish is full, bake until top layer of dorito's/shredded cheese is browning. As long as it doesnt dry out while cooking the dorito's make a delicous filling.

4. Grilling Meat, just get a gas grill and experiment, this is a must.

5. Baking Fish, get some catfish fillets and lay them in the casserole dish, pour vegetables around them, season the fish with lemon, pepper, and salt. Put a slice of butter on each fillet, bake on 350 for 30-45 min

6. Crab, buy a big steam pot, throw in water, crab boil powder, small red potato's, corn cut in 1/3's boil until done, then throw your steaming insert in top of pot and steam some crab 10min ish...done

These 6 items are a must have. Once you master these you will want to try other things and it snowballs from there. Feel free to modify any of these, but I will caution you that too much salt or garlic on anything will ruin it.

Last edited by jacob300zx; 05-13-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:25 PM   #39
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I will caution you that too much salt or garlic on anything will ruin it.
Salt yes, but it takes a lot of garlic to ruin something (assuming real garlic, either fresh or from the jar, sprinkle-garlic is easily overdone).
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:45 PM   #40
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Salt yes, but it takes a lot of garlic to ruin something (assuming real garlic, either fresh or from the jar, sprinkle-garlic is easily overdone).
Trader Joe's garlic from the jar is fantastic. Most jar garlic tastes sweet and nasty.
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