wow. That sucks
DAMN MAN, SO SORRY TO HEAR THAT:facepalm:
I know exactly how you feel right now. Take a few days off and relax/get your mind off this shit.
This is starting to kinda scare me a little bit.
My map was almost completely autotuned when it blew. AFR's were great, on the conservative side for sure, there was NO audible or recorded knock, and POW.

ls1motorsports installs his adaptronic, has it running for less than a day, no knock recorded or heard, and POW, blows 2 rods out the side.

ZxTex blew his ringlanding on a supertech piston as well.


So I'm wondering: is the Adaptronic either:
1) Not reading the stock knock sensor correctly
or
2) Advancing timing more than it shows or we think?

Not placing blame or anything at all, just really curious.


Neo can you post your map that was on the car right before it blew?
What psi/spark/afr was it running at?

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone especially Braineack for making the arrangements. I had a blast as usual. Next year I'll show up for the karting if someone can give me a place to sleep.

Thanks for letting an n/a crash the turbo party! :)

BTW, how much boost was Mann running?

I think he said 10psi with a 2860rs

Yup 10 lbs.

*edit* pics put in media thread

When Jes (sp?), Paul's GF, said, "hey, no one got it on video?!" I suggested that we can fill it up w/ more water and do another pull.:giggle:

WTF! I didn't know there were that many others. Now you got me scared.

Yeah I don't think that would be a good idea at all! Thank god the antifreeze was warm and not hot.

anyone have the video of my BOV leaking under high boost? Mann sent me one where everyone noticed but i need the one where it was happening, mann also said he was holding a flashlight in the video on it if that helps jog any memories

Guys (and Jes), sorry that I had to bail on dyno day. Couple of days ago I had another bad misfire problem. Paul hooked me up with some extra injectors .... I went to install them and managed to round-off one of the fuel rail bolts ..... etc., etc. .... comedy of errors. Anyway, I now own a round-bolt-removal-kit, which I shall attempt to use tomorrow. Meanwhile the Boundary COPS are due very soon. When everything is running again then I'll probably visit a Dynojet shop near here rather than hauling down to Delaware.

That is curious. Neos motor sounded like it was working hard, we were very surprised by his output. During one pull there were 4 people recording his run, I had my head close and I heard no knock, and it's easy to hear (sometimes see) it on the dyno...

His number were very low tho with that kind of boost and spark! I think he had some kind of problem before he even dynoed the car, did he check compression before the dyno ?

his compression was good. We put that block in the day before we did mine...

We were setting his boost just before he ran on the dyno, it felt great breaking traction in 4th gear!

Looks like tim should have it...

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...serialNumber=2

Bummer Brian- were you logging your pulls?

Maybe it was the people who built the block:giggle:

i think he just pushed the timing too much, but still, it's odd that there was no knock logged or heard on the pulls. Thing was running solid for the month before and his 3 hour drive north.

How much timing did he run up top?

i think it was 34 degrees which is insane but he kept making more torque and didn't lose any hp, and there was no ugly noises

34? it was more like 26-27° IIRC.

I thought he was at 18º and then added 6, so 24º. Maybe my memory has failed and it was a couple degrees more, but it shouldn't have been totally unreasonable with his 7.something:1 pistons. Don't know if he added 6 across an entire row or just in the few highest rpm cells at whatever boostsz he was running, but I was standing near the car for all 9 of his pulls and never heard any bad noises. Only sign of trouble I saw was the giant smoke cloud in my rear view mirror. :cry:

If we didn't hear pinging...could it have been too rich?

Did Brian log the AFRs?

I don't think it was rich enough to wash out the cylinders. pretty sure the ringlands are straight up busted.

Well if he got overly happy with the timing I can understand that. What I don't understand is how his car could be strong (from what you guys experienced) one day, and then after he's added all that timing without knock or anything recorded or heard, he puts down such small numbers.

Sounds similar to how my car behaved:
Base timing map. Fully autotuned fuel map. Car pulled very nicely. Installed exhaust. Made sure the fuel was still good. Timing was still base map. Car HAULED MAJOR ASS. Then after a run through 1-4th at full throttle, I notice a little smoke coming out the tailpipe. Thought it was me running rich. 10-15 seconds later the tailpipe is CHUGGING out huge puffs of steam. Pull over, and as soon as I stop, steam is coming from underhood like CRAZY.

Was that similar to how neo's car went?


Also notice that melting pistons/ringlands is not common around here. I mean I searched around and there are only a few people that have managed to do this. Then we start using adaptronics and all of a sudden I melt mine, Zxtex melts his supertecs which are forged pistons, and now Neo. Now granted we don't know EXACTLY what's wrong with neo's yet but I'll bet it similar.

So I'm starting to suspect the adaptronic advances ignition more than we think?

Or are we all just timing happy idiots and fucked ourselves on our own?:)

That is exactly how neo's motor went. I called him right after we got on the interstate to tell him that I saw some smoke coming out of his tailpipe. He said it was prob just him running rich. Then bam less them 5min later it was blowing all sorts of blueish smoke out the tailpipe.

I think the problem with most peoples tunes are caused by a difference in dynamic and steady state behavior. Steady state behavior is when the system is ran for long enough that things begin to equalize in temperature and airflow. Dynamic behavior is where things have not equalized yet.

Most dyno sessions only really tune the dynamic region of the car. You make a few changes, do a pull see the results, make a few more changes, do another pull, and see the results. This is great for seeing peak numbers but this is really ragged edge tuning. When your doing it this way the pistons, chambers, and valves are always cool unless your doing some kind of steady state or step dyno tuning. This means the engine can take large amounts of ignition advance without detonating.

In a steady state type of run like you guys were describing things are drastically different. A 1-4th in redline pull is going to take substantially more time then any dyno run. By the time your car is rocketing up to 7k in fourth gear the pistons are searing hot, the valves on the exhaust side are probably glowing red, and the chamber already has steam pockets forming around sections of it causing those areas to superheat. Now taking these two different scenerios and adding the same amount of ignition advance to both will create dramatically different outcomes.

There are ways to safegaurd the parts. Do a dyno tuning session, then add water injection but don't touch your ignition tuning settings. You could also use step dyno tuning and do it like that. You could road tune as well.

For road racers it would probably be smart to create a fuel map that has rich off throttle fuel maps. This would help cool the parts in the turns. Also just flat out conservative tuning is going to prevent issues. Adding an EGT gauge to monitor temperatures is also a very good idea.

I'm not saying the Adaptronic isn't the culprit becuase I have no way to test it at every point and see what its accuracy is, but all of these scenarios kind of happened in the same way after long hard pulls through the gears.

Errmm... so, any updates? Did you ever find out what the problem was?

not really. too much timing and it went boom. he had yet to pull the motor, but im sure well see signs of detonation.

Show up at my house with a grand cash and u can take the car and find out yourself. Just have to get here before brian comes up tomorrow to start tearing it apart.

$800? Oh btw I did come to find out my dyno pulls were at 12psi going to 10psi at red line! My gauge was of by 2 psi

You also came to find out how bad ass your car looks with a hardtop!

Yes, I've been on the hunt since the dyno day and no luck on any bargains yet.

If I let it go for 800, I am keeping the 6 speed. So be at my house by like um 5pm and its yours.

wow if only i had gotten out of AIT 10 days early i could have went to my first miata meet!.....interesting thread though

Yea.. I missed this, and very sad about it... sooo when is the next meet?

I agree, when is the next one of these? I am really sad that i missed out on this one.

There is also a shop near me that has a Mustang Dyno that might be willing to take on a group like this. They are located at Marion, PA 17235. They mostly do ford v8s for drag and circle track, but the owner seemed interested in my miata.

I know of another shop that would be willing to host. York automotive in mt airy md has a dyno dynamics. Owner knows Miatas well among other cars. Anyone interested down this way in a spring/early summer day?

You previous two posters are missing the point. We always go to the same shop so we can compare the results over time without worrying about dyno machine variables.

There's other variables too like birds farting in china or other crap. Maybe not everyone wants to haul ass up to Delaware

that would be pretty sweet to do a small group of locals

OK let me ask him about the costs.

Agreed. I know that if my next setup makes more/less/same power than a previous setup, it's not likely to be due to a different dyno or operator or whatever. Plus the Delaware place lets us do simple tweaks between runs, lets us run our own car, and is cheap. People have done 5-6 pulls with major tweaks between runs and it's still the same price.

the DE place is great for a large group. but i swear it takes out at least one car each meet :)

Took out 2 this past time. neogen's and Jes'. Paul actually got in the laguna the other day to drive it and was wondering why he had no heat. :giggle:

Somehow I missed the fact that there was a second blown motor that day. Or are you saying it happened more recently? My recollection is that Jes' car had clearly audible knock on the dyno.

did her motor go? i thought it was just that hose.

Just the hose. But the car did ping on the dyno.

I need an alignment from York. I need to finish my car. What date are you shooting for?

Frank

Well I'm seceding from this thread--

I started a new thread for a DC/MD/VA dyno day at york in mt airy:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t43084/#post511109

Please post there so as to not disturb the detritus of this last dyno day.

let's not talk about that stupid hose ever again....BTW I'm never helping anyone listen to knock on a dyno ever again

http://www.msu.edu/%7Elareseer/eI/detCan/IMG_0580.jpg

http://www.msu.edu/%7Elareseer/eI/detCan/IMG_0587.jpg

http://www.msu.edu/%7Elareseer/eI/detCan/IMG_0588.jpg