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Old 10-17-2009, 08:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Midtenn View Post
I think someone is a Corvette fan. I never saw Jorg Bergmiester make a dangerous move to defend his position. He drove a defensive line that would make the Jan take the less preferred way to pass. To me, that is the job of the race leader. It is the responsibility of the passing driver to do it safely. Jan just stuck his nose in a few too many times. I besides the last straight, I saw the Jan creating more dangerous situations than Jorg. I mean come on, what if someone was coming out of the pits when Jan cut through put out?

Do I think Jorg created a dangerous situation on the final straight? Yes. But Jan also tried to bump him out of the way a few times before that (I guess thats not dangerous when Jan almost ran the ALMS Challenge car off the course in the cork screw?). To me, it was just racing up until the last straight incident. I'm tired of the pantie wasted series complaining about blocking. I am sorry, but that is racing. You keep the other drivers behind out at all cost (safely).
Exactly. If you can't find a way around without bumping and making things unsafe, then you deserve to be in second place, that is what it means to be second anyway isn't it?
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:39 PM   #22
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I think the race was really ******* intense and enjoyable. Im a track virgin and I have no experience in real racing. Burgmeister and magnusun (correct me if wrong) were side by side right before turn two, the first time the Vette went off the track, and burg by trying to keep his lead slightly pushed the Vette aside.

The Vette was really aggressive througout the whole video, and fortunately there was no one exiting the pit when he pulled that stunt.

Conclusion, after watching the video again I gonna side with Burgmeister.
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Old 10-18-2009, 01:15 AM   #23
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Other than moving over on the Vette coming out of 11 on the last lap after being intentionally hit, the driver of the Porsche ran the race like a pro... the Vette driver ran like an ***. The Vette's turn 2 attempt was clearly out of line... the driver who is in front has the right to take his line, if the overtaking car can't make the pass, he has to yield, those ARE the rules.

As someone who has raced wheel to wheel (though in open wheeled formula cars and karts), I'd have been sorely tempted to get out of my car at the end of the race and kick the crap out of the Vette driver... he deserved it.
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Old 10-18-2009, 01:16 AM   #24
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DAMN!! Thats some crazy intense racing!! That was some dirty driving, but WOW!!

Nomie
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:29 PM   #25
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bullshit. When the vette would being to pass in #2, and the porsche rammed him into the gravel...that's not dogfighting, its cheap ****.
The vette made clear illegal moves too. Cmon now he was being impatient and I dont blame him, but bumping to get by and trying to use part of pit to pass are against the rules too. I remember what you're talking about happening on the 3rd to last lap. The one that happened on the final lap was visibly caused by the rear end sliding out. He took his line and gave alittle space, but they constantly discussed that his tires were wearing hard and stopping in wouldnt be worth it. Thats also one reason why the vette was faster, but by being in front the flying lizard had the "right-away" to his lines. The corvette had to yield unless he was atleast half a car ahead of the porsche. He didnt do it on purpose, it was just one of those things that happen. You could clearly see he was racing defensively, not pushing. Im not even gonna bother to argue much though. I mean cmon now, if you were about to win an AMLS championship what the **** would you do in that situation? I know i'd be pressured and make mistakes, as well as getting into it in a dog fight like this one. My hat off to both of them. It was a great battle and the highlight of the race. They both wanted to win and only one could. **** happens. It happens in racing all the time

Last edited by Sam Amporful; 10-18-2009 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:27 PM   #26
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vette barely touched the porsche. but you know what? they were both hauling *** into the corner. but the porsche moved him over into the wall on the STRAIGHT, and caused a serious accident. bumping is one thing, but working someone into the wall on a straight is bullshit. if the porsche would have protected the inside line the vette couldn't have (tapped) him the way he did, he would have forced the vette to go the "long way" on the outside. then the vette was already ahead when the porsche hit his rear, (hence the pit manuever). did that vette driver deserve to be killed? could have happened at the speeds they were going. i hate nascar, but that's how dale earnhardt got killed. no one desrves that.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
vette barely touched the porsche. but you know what? they were both hauling *** into the corner. but the porsche moved him over into the wall on the STRAIGHT, and caused a serious accident. bumping is one thing, but working someone into the wall on a straight is bullshit. if the porsche would have protected the inside line the vette couldn't have (tapped) him the way he did, he would have forced the vette to go the "long way" on the outside. then the vette was already ahead when the porsche hit his rear, (hence the pit manuever). did that vette driver deserve to be killed? could have happened at the speeds they were going. i hate nascar, but that's how dale earnhardt got killed. no one desrves that.
The hit from the Vette happened because he was trying to get the Porsche loose in the corner, not because the Porsche was doing anything wrong besides racing. The Vette plowed into that turn with too much speed, the guys bumper in front makes a good brake though.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:46 PM   #28
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i'd rather get bumped in a corner than pit manuvered into a wall on a straight. your not understanding what i meant about his line either. if we were on a track together i could show you. also, there IS a rule against blocking. you have 1 move to make. if you move to the inside to protect your position, you can't swing out the other way if the chase car goes to the outside. not saying that's what happened, just saying why cars defending their position run a tighter slower line. the porsche fucked up and went a little wide, vette tried to get in there but bumped the porsche's driver's side rear, which made him get a little loose and go a little wider. had the porsche been where he needed to be, the vette would have bumped the center or pass. side rear. which might have got him a little squirrly still, but left no room for the vette to pull up along side the porsche. porsche would have won the "right way". anyway, who cares, not my car's or friends, it was still entertaining to watch. the laps before that were pretty clean i think, for taking the cars to their limit. and someone said why did the vette wait to pass? well they didn't watch the race cuz the vette passed using the pit entrance, since the porsche was positioned correctly at that corner, but race steward said no way, and made the vette give the position back with a lap or 2 left.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
i'd rather get bumped in a corner than pit manuvered into a wall on a straight. your not understanding what i meant about his line either. if we were on a track together i could show you. also, there IS a rule against blocking. you have 1 move to make. if you move to the inside to protect your position, you can't swing out the other way if the chase car goes to the outside. not saying that's what happened, just saying why cars defending their position run a tighter slower line. the porsche fucked up and went a little wide, vette tried to get in there but bumped the porsche's driver's side rear, which made him get a little loose and go a little wider. had the porsche been where he needed to be, the vette would have bumped the center or pass. side rear. which might have got him a little squirrly still, but left no room for the vette to pull up along side the porsche. porsche would have won the "right way". anyway, who cares, not my car's or friends, it was still entertaining to watch. the laps before that were pretty clean i think, for taking the cars to their limit. and someone said why did the vette wait to pass? well they didn't watch the race cuz the vette passed using the pit entrance, since the porsche was positioned correctly at that corner, but race steward said no way, and made the vette give the position back with a lap or 2 left.
Its important to note that the porsche bumped the vette off the pavement, into gravel exiting #2 and before the corkscrew. Then the vette passed on the pit exit, which officials called back. This is the bullshit. I don't understand why its acceptable to bump a car off track, into gravel, but not acceptable for the vette to pass the porsche off track, where its paved.


Porsche better get accustomed to vettes passing them because the PM vettes are going to ****-stomp a mudhole in porsche all season
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:07 AM   #30
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Its important to note that the porsche bumped the vette off the pavement, into gravel exiting #2 and before the corkscrew. Then the vette passed on the pit exit, which officials called back. This is the bullshit. I don't understand why its acceptable to bump a car off track, into gravel, but not acceptable for the vette to pass the porsche off track, where its paved.


Porsche better get accustomed to vettes passing them because the PM vettes are going to ****-stomp a mudhole in porsche all season
The Porsche DIDN'T bump the Vette off at turn 2, he properly held his line and the Vette tried to force the issue when he didn't have room to make the pass. I'll repeat myself, if the driver making the pass can't get by the leading driver when he's on the racing line, he HAS to yield... The Vette driver was driving like an *******.

I'd note that a couple laps before the end the Vette DID get in front... I'll also note he didn't have what it took to stay there, so he obviously wasn't the faster racer.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:58 AM   #31
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The Porsche DIDN'T bump the Vette off at turn 2, he properly held his line and the Vette tried to force the issue when he didn't have room to make the pass. I'll repeat myself, if the driver making the pass can't get by the leading driver when he's on the racing line, he HAS to yield... The Vette driver was driving like an *******.

I'd note that a couple laps before the end the Vette DID get in front... I'll also note he didn't have what it took to stay there, so he obviously wasn't the faster racer.
Next season when I'm driving the LMP1 Acura and someone initiates a pass, I'm going to ram them off the track due to the extreme capacity that the passer must yield.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:16 PM   #32
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The Porsche DIDN'T bump the Vette off at turn 2, he properly held his line and the Vette tried to force the issue when he didn't have room to make the pass. I'll repeat myself, if the driver making the pass can't get by the leading driver when he's on the racing line, he HAS to yield... The Vette driver was driving like an *******.

I'd note that a couple laps before the end the Vette DID get in front... I'll also note he didn't have what it took to stay there, so he obviously wasn't the faster racer.
apparently you didn't note that the vette GAVE the position back to the porsche because race officials said he made an illegal pass using pavement of the pit entrance. as a matter of fact it's in 2 posts above including the one you quoted! you may also have missed the fact that when the vette got in front he gapped that porsche immediately.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:47 PM   #33
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The Vette was clearly MUCH faster than the Porsche the last 5 laps. That the only way around him was the pit exit lane speaks miles to how much blocking/defensive driving the Porsche was doing. The pit lane wasn't a short cut, it was how wide the track needed to be to get by. Jaque Jerard made that car a mile wide and poor Ricky Bobby couldn't pass.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:13 PM   #34
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The Vette was clearly MUCH faster than the Porsche the last 5 laps. That the only way around him was the pit exit lane speaks miles to how much blocking/defensive driving the Porsche was doing. The pit lane wasn't a short cut, it was how wide the track needed to be to get by. Jaque Jerard made that car a mile wide and poor Ricky Bobby couldn't pass.
The pit lane is not a short cut, but Jan made a completely blind maneuver coming over the crest to get into the pit exit. What if a car was coming down the pit exit at the moment Jan decided to make his pass?
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:16 PM   #35
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Didn't say it was safe, legal or otherwise. It did show just how wide a track was needed and how unexpected a move it took to get around the slower Porsche.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:05 PM   #36
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That the 'vette was even out on the track for the final lap is a testament to the leniency of the race officials. He didn't merely shortcut a chicane in an otherwise insignificant area of the track like the F1 guys occasionally do, he cut through pit out which is a gross safety violation IMO. I'm surprised ALMS doesn't have rules about **** like that earning you stop-and-go penalty.

The rest of it was just good hard racing until the end. I'd probably try sandwiching someone into the wall if they divebombed my fender in the last turn. Dick moves on both drivers really. The 'vette was a bit faster but the Porsche did a legal job of driving a defensive line. If the 'vette had done the bump-and-run three laps earlier and then put a gap on that P-car (he would have) then the finish wouldn't have been quite so dramatic, but to do it on the last turn of the last lap is kind of dickish and inviting retaliation. The Corvette was generally being driven in a similar manner to what I do in Gran Turismo- trying passes in spots that only work (sometimes) in video games, shortcutting sections of the track, and if that doesn't work, hell just follow the other guy's line until you're close enough to give em the pit maneuver and drive on by!
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:10 PM   #37
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That the 'vette was even out on the track for the final lap is a testament to the leniency of the race officials. He didn't merely shortcut a chicane in an otherwise insignificant area of the track like the F1 guys occasionally do, he cut through pit out which is a gross safety violation IMO. I'm surprised ALMS doesn't have rules about **** like that earning you stop-and-go penalty.

The rest of it was just good hard racing until the end. I'd probably try sandwiching someone into the wall if they divebombed my fender in the last turn. Dick moves on both drivers really. The 'vette was a bit faster but the Porsche did a legal job of driving a defensive line. If the 'vette had done the bump-and-run three laps earlier and then put a gap on that P-car (he would have) then the finish wouldn't have been quite so dramatic, but to do it on the last turn of the last lap is kind of dickish and inviting retaliation. The Corvette was generally being driven in a similar manner to what I do in Gran Turismo- trying passes in spots that only work (sometimes) in video games, shortcutting sections of the track, and if that doesn't work, hell just follow the other guy's line until you're close enough to give em the pit maneuver and drive on by!
allow me to get the IMSA rule book out:

6.17 PASSING
It is the responsibility of both the overtaking Driver and the Driver being overtaken to assure safe passing at racing speeds. A car traveling alone may use the full width of the track. Passing may be either right or left depending on the conditions of the moment.

5.5 BLOCKING
Any driver who, in the sole opinion of the Race Director and/or Stewards, alters their racing line based on the actions of pursuing competitors, or uses an abnormal racing line to inhibit or prevent passing may be considered to be “blocking” and may be warned or penalized pursuant to Article 8 of the IMSA Code. In accordance with Art.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:20 PM   #38
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Vette would have been several seconds a lap faster than the Porsche if he wasn't held up. Look how far in front he got in the 20 seconds after the pit lane pass. He should be embarrased he couldn't get around the blocking Porsche's fat ***. Just wish they'd have thrown helmets at each other in the pits to top off the school yard BS on the track.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:24 PM   #39
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apparently you didn't note that the vette GAVE the position back to the porsche because race officials said he made an illegal pass using pavement of the pit entrance. as a matter of fact it's in 2 posts above including the one you quoted! you may also have missed the fact that when the vette got in front he gapped that porsche immediately.
Apparently you didn't watch the entire race. Go back 4 or 5 laps.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:29 PM   #40
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Apparently you didn't watch the entire race. Go back 4 or 5 laps.
I'm going to run your *** off the track like a bitch.
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