Good call. I'd do some playing around with that. Maybe fine tune it yourself with det cans? It sounds like MS uses a threshold instead of an offset table like Adaptronic. Just make sure you don't start ignoring it in other areas of the RPM range. A knock light that goes off regularly is just as bad as one that never goes off.

lol flashing immobilizer light? That never stops flashing on my car. I don't get the CEL flash though, ever. Definitely want to do some more looking into that.

Also, what's up with your sig? Your car doesn't seem ruined...

You should be able to just raise the configured setting to display the knock CEL. So it doesn't come on all the time.That is, if your positive it's not actually knock.

he doesn't even have an MS lol

Yea I do lol

im talking about turbofan (ed)

I'm sure this ^ post was directed at Mazdaspeeder.

Is the CEL flashing for knock only an MS thing?

as far as I know, yes.
but maybe I'm wrong.

I think other ECUs can use the CEL for various functions. The immobilizer flashing is just because of the stock ECU not being in the car. Some newer MS units have a feature to make the light stop flashing.

The comment in my sig is for something that happened a long time ago. I actually changed it because if it wasn't for their antics i wouldn't have gotten to build this car, but I'd also have been about $15,000 richer. I just decided to go all out though.

The Enhanced MS2 and the Basic MS3 do have a threshold table vs RPM.

Rev, which connector did you say has to be disconnected when loading a new tune? Reason I ask is we're gonna log it saturday and I have a backup tune with some timing taken out of the top if it does turn out to be concerning noise.

that's when flashing firmware.
changing map takes .02 seconds and requires nothing but pressing the keys on the computer

That is a beautiful build list. I've always wanted to do a similar build.

Beautiful build, good job!

Saw this car in person tonight! Only wish we had time to take a spin around the block haha.

I owe ya a ride next time

So the good word is in. Took a log 1st through 4th gear up to about 90mph. Had the CEL come on top of 3rd but not 4th. Sent to Ken

As soon as it detects "knock", it pulls 2.5* of timing, and then another 2.5* and begins t add back .5* at a time over the course of about 1000rpm. He said the noise is increasing gradually and not suddely so there's no reason to think it's knock. The sensor sensitivity needs to be recalibrated. Basically right now it's pulling timing as a safety for no reason, so I feel at ease about the motor and tune. We will fix the knock sensitivity and proceed with life.

Yep, these ancient BP's are noisy little buggers.

We had a whole thread in the Adaptronic section when we were 1st setting up knock windowing and all of us had a massive spike in false knock at a certain rpm range.

Mine comes on right around 5500rpm like the video. Only close to or at full throttle. My piston to wall is .004 and I have wisecos so I do get some cold noise but it's super nice once warm. Only engine noise I hear arethe lifters and misc operation through my exhaust leak

Speaking of full throttle, really wanting that skunk 2 throttle body. Seems like a cheat not to get it at this point as a failure there could cost thousands. Should I do it? I really want me some NA valve cover bolts too.

So I was doing more reading and in retrospect am not sure that I made some of the right choices. The car is primarily street driven but has the Wiseco 2816 pistons. The specs are as follows

P2W - .004
Main Bearing .002
Rod Bearing .002

I get some slap when its cold but the motor sounds good once its up and running. Just wondering what kind of lifespan I can expect from this setup. Also wondering how long the 2816 piston expansion and contraction takes. For example, if I stop somewhere for an hour, do I need to warm up the pistons again before setting off, or does it take several hours for them to "shrink". Same for how long they expand. I've been googling this for a few days now but no definite answers. I just see how many people use Supertech or other 4032 pistons and can't help feel I made a mistake. I'm not tearing the slugs out of the block, but would like to know if I can expact this thing to last 40 or 50k miles. I know FM uses Wisecos, but custom ones with longer skirts.

Anyone been using Wiseco or similar 2816 pistons for considerable time/miles?

MS3-Basic has a lot of sensor Out of Range that flashes CEL codes. The Knock Warning is a separate output. With or without a warning output, if the knock threshold at a given RPM is crossed, then timing is pulled. If still knocking, more timing is pulled. Some of the details are programable (as in keep timing pulled until... vs run right at knock limit).

If there is a way to tie it into CEL, I'm not aware. My plan is to drive a separate LED. If I can simple send it to CEL, and also keep the other functionality, please tell me how.

I'm running Wiseco pistons in my personal car with a clearance of 0.0035. For 400whp and below, I use 0.0035.

For reference I have zero audible piston slap during a cold start. Just recently had the engine apart and the dry lube on the Wiseco piston skirt is still in tact after 7k on this setup.

This being said, at .004 I don't think you're in danger of any noteworthy accelerated wear.

great build and wonderful car! :)

Thanks for the words of encouragement. The engine was bored and honed for the 83.5mm pistons. Then when the rod bearing failed it was honed again. Then during the last build, it was honed again. I don't know what my piston to wall was in the beginning, probably closer to .003 or .0035.

The last round, machine shop said I didn't HAVE to hone, but there was some visible up down stuff, and substantially less but was still was after hone, but nothing you could feel with your finger. I was concerned with the number of hones the bores had but the machine shop said there was no reason to get bigger pistons and even with the last hone it was still good.

MOAR VIDEOS

1st to 3rd

3rd and 4th

"3rd to 4th" :skid:

:eek4: JEEBUS

That efr spool between 2-3k was nice. Well done sir! :bowdown:

LOVE THE VIDS !!!

very nice, props to you

I was going to "trim the fat" and delete the BS footage but the sound was nice so I left it in. That high pitched spooling is actually in vacuum. I use an auto meter boost gauge and once I hit 5hg the sound instantly shuts down and turns into a more whooshy sound.

Thanks for the videos! I hope my MSM turns out half as nice when I get it all tuned and somewhat finished!

Are there like no roads in Philly you can really rev that guy out Alex? Come on! Let's see 1st to 5th redline pull!

1st, 2nd, and sometimes even 3rd are spin gears. Top of 5th would put me around 120mph, I am not against it but do not want to drive and film it at the same time.

We have to do some clips with my GoPro lol

Spooling 3rd gear from 2000rpm

Sholy Hit! I need some of that!

Very nice!

:drool:

:party:

The other problem with doing a 5th gear run is that because its mistaking the operating noise for knock and pulling timing, top of 5th turns into a add>remove>add>remove>add>remove timing deal and the car breaks up a good bit. I'm probably not going to see my tuner until the spring for this issue since I won't be driving the car much more from now until spring, and certainly not going that fast.

One more thing to consider with the wheelspin, I am on 225 Ventus RS3 tires that have under 10k miles and great tread, but they're ~3 years old and have been through the process of warm and cold weather. I hear that this process changes the compound of the tire and causes it to become permanently harder to some degree. I'll need new tires soon

Damn. I want an EFR now. You're making the same power as me at 3 less PSI and spool is monumentally better.

I need to stop watching vids of people with EFRs.

Maybe I should just stop posting videos lol. I am happy there are now videos aside from Soviet's on youtube of the EFR in a Miata. I'd love to see some similar vids of his 29psi E85 setup.

I will think the E85 thing over during the winter. I can't run pure E85 because of the low availability, but I can do a mix. I'd need a flex fuel sender for sure, but also I'm not sure than my injectors or fuel pump are up to the task. Pump is a Walbro 255 and injectors are FIC 775cc. I'm worried about the rotting of the stock fuel lines with E85, but the FM big fuel kit is $1,000 and doesn't even include injectors which are another ~$500. E85 seems to be some magical juice that is worth investing into, I'm just tossing it around. My friend runs E85 in his JDM STi and a mix in his 335i and loves what it does for both cars. Basically said it dramatically increases power and dramatically decreases possibility of detonation.

What would happen if I just used 11 gallons of 93 and 1 gallon of E85 without changing my tune? Any benefits? Wouldn't it just act as a sort of octane booster?

1 gallon of E85 has at least 0.7 gal ethanol and 0.3 gal gas
11 gallons of 93 aka E10 has 1.1 gal ethanol and 9.9 gal gas

so 11 gal 93 and 1 gal e85 you end up with 1.8gal ethanol in 12gal of fuel -> which is same as 15% ethanol, meaing you just mixed up some E15.

Thanks for the explanation. What would that do with an unchanged tune? What would it do to AFR etc?

It won't do much good in terms of more power and less det, but may lean your car out dramatically. Mixing without tuning or a flex sensor is a really good way to ruin your engine. Don't do it. I've seen too many people break stuff doing that. Pure e85 is pure win, however.

On the other hand, your fuel lines will be fine, and the 775's should be able to handle 300-350whp on e85. Might need a afpr though.

Don't stop posting videos. Ever :party:

I will just stick with 93* for now and do the appropriate mods later if I decide to do flex fuel.

Wise move. Mixing fuel is right there with Water/Meth in my book. It's a band-aid for fueling with too many potential failure points. Flex fuel sensor is a good way to combat this but you obviously need to invest some serious dyno time to get this dialed in safely, especially when MBT tuning.

Car is looking beastly man - Might have to make a trip down next summer to check you out. You've been a pleasure to deal with.

If you're in Philadelphia, definitely give me a shout and we can meet up. Miata Man Date? :dancegay::rofl:

I did some playing online and figured out that my car right now generates ~292hp/ton. To put it in perspective. (This is converting 311whp to 365bhp via some calculator)

Mercedes C Class 63 AMG Coupe Black Series - [2011]298.2 bhp per tonne
Mercedes E Class 63 AMG - [2013]298.1 bhp per tonne
Lamborghini Miura P4000 SV - [1971]297.7 bhp per tonne
Porsche 911 Turbo 997 - [2006]297.7 bhp per tonne
Porsche 911 GT3 RS 997 - [2006]297.4 bhp per tonne
Porsche 911 GT3 997 - [2007]296.7 bhp per tonne
Porsche 911 Turbo S 993 - [1998]296.0 bhp per tonne
Morgan Aero 8 4.4 V8 - [2000]294.5 bhp per tonne
Dodge Viper GTS - [1996]293.9 bhp per tonne
Ferrari 575 M Fiorano - [2002]293.6 bhp per tonne
Jaguar F Type 5.0L V8 S Cabriolet - [2012]293.0 bhp per tonne
Mazdaspeed Miata "Honey Badger" [2004]292 bhp per tonne
BMW 5 Series M5 Competition Pack F10 - [2013]291.5 bhp per tonne
Chevrolet Corvette 6.2 V8 2d - [2007]291.4 bhp per tonne
BMW Alpina B5 V8 Switchtronic E60 - [2006]290.6 bhp per tonne
Chevrolet Corvette C2 Stingray 427 425hp - [1966]290.4 bhp per tonne
Aston-Martin Vantage V12 Roadster - [2012]289.7 bhp per tonne
Ferrari 612 Scaglietti F1 - [2004]289.6 bhp per tonne
Wiesmann GT MF4 - [2008]289.6 bhp per tonne
Jaguar D Type 3.4L - [1954]289.3 bhp per tonne
TVR T350 T 3.6 - [2004]289.0 bhp per tonne
Mercedes C Class 63 AMG Edition 507 - [2013]289.0 bhp per tonne
Mercedes C Class 63 AMG Edition 507 Coupe - [2013]289.0 bhp per tonne
Caterham 7 Superlight - [1996]288.7 bhp per tonne
Lotus 340 R - [2000]288.7 bhp per tonne
Ferrari 360 Modena F1 - [1999]287.7 bhp per tonne
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII MR FQ 400 - [2004]287.2 bhp per tonne
Mercedes SL Class 63 AMG V8 - [2012]287.2 bhp per tonne
Ginetta G60 3.7 V6 - [2011]287.0 bhp per tonne
Jaguar XK R 5.0 Supercharged - [2009]286.9 bhp per tonne
BMW 6 Series M6 4.4 V8 F13 - [2012]286.7 bhp per tonne
Jaguar XF R-S 5.0 V8 - [2012]286.6 bhp per tonne
Aston-Martin Vantage V8 550 - [1993]286.4 bhp per tonne
Mercedes CLS Class 63 AMG 4Matic - [2013]286.3 bhp per tonne
Mercedes SL Class 65 AMG V12 R230 - [2004]286.2 bhp per tonne
Audi R8 6.0 Quattro V12 TDI - [2009]285.7 bhp per tonne
Cadillac CTS -V 6.2 V8 Auto - [2009]285.7 bhp per tonne
Ferrari 500 Superfast 5.0 V12 - [1964]285.7 bhp per tonne
Aston-Martin DB9 5.9 V12 - [2012]285.7 bhp per tonne
Mercedes SL Class 65 AMG V12 R230 - [2008]284.9 bhp per tonne
Audi R8 5.2 V10 Spyder - [2012]284.6 bhp per tonne
Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black Series - [2007]284.0 bhp per tonne
Alfa-Romeo 8C Competitzione - [2008]283.9 bhp per tonne
Mercedes CL Class 65 AMG Bi Turbo - [2003]283.9 bhp per tonne
BMW 5 Series M5 F10 - [2011]283.8 bhp per tonne
BMW 6 Series M6 Gran Coupe 4.4 V8 - [2012]283.0 bhp per tonne
Ferrari 550 Maranello - [1997]282.6 bhp per tonne
Audi A6 RS6 5.0 TFSI V10 - [2008]282.4 bhp per tonne
Audi A6 RS6 Avant 5.0 V10 - [2007]282.4 bhp per tonne

Of course without a driver it means nothing, but cool to see where my money has gotten me vs the costs of other cars and their respective performance on paper. After consulting professor google again, I found most of the cars in this power range run a low 12 or high 11 second quarter mile. I'm happy with that, and will try for 11s at Atco next year!

Our cars were not designed with the quarter mile in mind, and it takes quite a bit of skill and prep to get good quarter mile times. Just a heads up, so you're not too disappointed later. Most of my friends with 360+ to the wheels still struggle to hit 11's because they're simply spinning halfway down the track. Heck, Ryan spun wrinkle wall slicks down the track to a 12.6 @ 122

But I wish you the best of luck, and hope you do hit 11's, and make sure to take videos please :)

LOL traction is definitely a problem. Once I get the EBC set up and get my boost by gear done, maybe more doable. Atco also IIRC happens to be the lowest elevation track in the country.

So I got a Skunk 2 throttle body for it. Need to port the IM a little to get rid of the ridge from going bigger. Not expecting power gains, but my mechanic said he's going to re-do some of my IC pipes and he thinks I can gain power from that.

Need to see Ken for Boost by Gear anyway, maybe we'll just book an hour or two on the dyno to do that, the knock sensor, and small corrections. It's been cold here, and calling for 12-16" of snow today and tomorrow. I've put <50mi on the car in the last 3 months, but I'm trying to save miles for summer. Should probably go start it in the garage at least for a minute or so soon.

have you considered a squaretop? or a honda mani? or something along those lines?

I highly doubt re-doing the ic piping on your setup is going to net any gains, and yet the vtcs manifold is terrible and should definitely be up for replacement consideration.

or if you want a spare I'll sell you one cheap and you can hog it out as hard as you want. I've always wanted to see someone go nuts with a grinder on one of those, and actually will attempt it myself someday when I have spare time

I'd probably get a squaretop (hope the Skunk 2 TB can bolt to it). I can't imagine it being very easy to get into all the passages of the VTCS to port it correctly. Were you thinking of grinding out the webbing inside and make it one large plenum instead of 4 smaller ones?

nah, more along the lines of welding up the vtcs shaft passages, smoothing out the runners, smoothing out transitions inside, and REALLY hogging out the TB throat cause i believe that's where the biggest restriction is.

all of the people that hogged out the guts before would usually see 5, maybe 10hp total gain, and even then it wasn't a super precise comparison, so I'm not sure that is the area to waste too much time on.

if the skunk2 is miata specific, then it should bolt to all NB intake mani's

We've already removed the flappers in the runners, welded the holes, bored and smoothed those passages. The only thing stock still is the TB and TB inlet area. IIRC there's a pretty mean curve there, but I'll see what my guy can do. Plan is to just bring him the TB and top plenum of the IM so the car can stay in the garage at home.

oh I see, well in that case carry on :party:

I think to get rid of the kink altogether it requires cutting the bottom part and welding in aluminum. I know I've seen someone do this already. seems like a ton of work and money to sink into a vtcs mani, but if your guy is cheap and if you've already gone this far I guess might as well try it.

Hogging out the inside is a sure way to loose power, at least on a VICs manifold.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1417050061

As far as I've read from Emilio, he seems to be suggesting that a square top with the upper half ported to fit the S2 throttle body is the "easiest" high performance intake. That's if you don't wanna pay for the Honda, cut up a perfectly good mazda, have it welded, and then pay to have the TB opening and welded runners ported.

Easiest solution is to use a ported squaretop - the Skunk2 TB bolts onto it fine.

Minimising the number of plumbing bends and reductions will improve airflow.

Regarding that last bit:

On MSMs, the stock turbo outlet is 1.75" and the TB is 2" (or something close to that). Most MSM guys will install an aftermarket intercooler that has 2.5" barbs and on the coldside use a 2.5" -> 2" hose reducer so that they can use the existing coldside plumbing. This reduction is a bottleneck to airflow so replace all that coldside plumbing with 2.5" pipes and use a 90* 2.5"->2.75" silicon elbow to connect the Skunk2 TB.

It's a good idea to replace the MSM IC pipes anyway since they're steel and prone to rusting on the inside.

Did someone say ported squaretop?
 

Squaretop:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1422335645
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1422335645


Ported intake (you can see some gasket, I re-assembled to take this picture, gasket won't be in the way on final re-assembly)

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1422335645

What you have if you don't port the intake, you are definitely flowing enough air for this to be a noticeable obstruction:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1422335645

My old squaretop looks so good! I wish I wouldn't have sold it though, lol.

You mean my old squaretop? or is that a different one? :laugh: