My MSM is finished!
 

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400163621

My pride and joy, a 2004 MSM that I bought almost 5 years ago. It has been out of comission since last June getting a motor overhaul. While we were at it waiting on some parts, we bought more parts, and it ended up being a lengthy and expensive project.

Engine
BP4W Mazdaspeed .020 over
BP4W ported head
Eagle H-Beam Rods
Wiseco 83.5mm 8.5:1
Boundary Engineering Street/Strip oil pump
SuperMiata harmonic damper
ARP head/main studs
ACL Race bearings
Supertech Valve Spring kit
VICS delete

Turbo
ARTech custom top-mount manifold
Swaintech White Lightning manifold coating
ARTech 3” v-band downpipe catless
BorgWarner EFR6258 turbo
CorkSport 80mm Catback
AN-4 feed
AN-10 drain

Cooling
TrackSpeedEngineering crossflow radiator
FlyinMiata coolant re-route
FlyinMiata Oil cooler kit
Fab9Tuning 550HP Intercooler
SPAL 14” curved fan
DeRale PS cooler

Electronics
Megasquirt 2xtra
Fab9Tuning COP kit
AEM EUGO WBo2
Autometer Boost gauge
FuelInjectorClinic 775cc ev14 injectors
Walbro 225lph pump

Drivetrain
Competition 13lb flywheel
FlyinMiata Stage2 clutch kit
PuddyMod Stage2 differential (cryo treated option)
Mazda “Aussie” 3.63 ring and pinion
Energy Differential mounts
SuperMiata SS Clutch line
MiataRoadster SS kit
Mazdaspeed competiton motor mounts
949Racing Driveshaft

Suspension
Tein FLEX 7kg/6kg Coilovers
RacingBeat 1.125” front sway bar
RacingBeat sway reinforcement kit
RacingBeat adjustable sway links
Hawk HPS pads
SuperMiata SS Brake lines
HardDog Hardcore Double Diagonal Rollbar

Wheels And Tires
949Racing 6UL gen3 15x9 Nicke
225/45/R15 Hankook Ventus RS3 tires
Forged lugs

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400163621

Some of the parts were on the car before we started, but a lot was added along the way. We waited for about 3 months for the main bearings to come from ACL because nobody could get them and ACL apparently made a bad batch that they scrapped and started over (good thing I didnt get those).

Can't really do a build thread at this point but it was a really fun project. I learned lots along the way and got to assemble (with help of a great mechanic) lots of things on the car including the whole head, block, etc. a very hands on project. Car is set to go to Oracle Tuning to Ken Hill (formerly an FM employee) to be tuned at the end of the month. I am aiming for 300whp which should come fairly easily. I think it will do ~325 before breaking a sweat as a few others have done with similar setups.

FEELIN GOOD! :skid:

Alex - this came out top notch. Looks like you've got yourself a solid setup. That intercooler looks great :party:

Hurray on getting this bad boy back on the road! Looks quick, sweet turbo!

This car is setup very closely to my build and I am interested in seeing how some numbers as well. Are you having issues with the amperage draw when the 14" SPAL kicks on? I'm having compensating for that in tunerstudio. Also are you running the Fab9 PNP COP kit or a full sequential?

It's a fab9 in wasted spark setup. Yes, car dies when it's fully warmed up and the fan hits. My mechanic suggested some kind of amperage restrictor or clip I forget. Ill see if my tuner can figure it out. Does your car die when you're fully warmed up and just come out of gear into neutral? Loss in rpm from clutch depression?

Yes, my car sometimes dies when the fan kicks on at idle, especially right when coming out of gear. The RPMs drop really low but the engine recovers most of the time. If you put a restrictor on it you'll lose a lot of the CFMs. There wasn't anything my tuner could change to make up for it. Soviet wasn't able to tune it out on his car either, I think he ended up going with a higher output alternator but is now working out some issues with that. I send you the best of luck with trying to sort that out. If you find something that works please let me know.

Reverent said

Enable closed loop control then: Base Setup -> EGO Control -> Controller Authority: 25%.

I won't get to try for a few days. Anyone else welcome to.

What is causing the stalling? The fan? I doubt it because the car dies coming out of gear even at 40 or 50mph sometimes.

I'm not sure about your situation but my stalling is from the fan kicking on and drawing too much amperage that the car can't compensate

Smaller fan a solution?

Correction to initial post: "VICS delete" should read "VTCS delete" - MSMs have a VTCS intake manifold.

I posted this correction in your mazda-speed.com thread too but it got deleted for some reason.

Looking forward to your dyno chart to compare it to my build when it's finished. I still need to install my Fab9 COPs, Fab9 350hp intercooler, squaretop intake manifold and Skunk2 throttle body - just waiting on the ID 725cc injectors to arrive (apart from the intercooler, the other components are easier to install in one hit since the intake manifold head needs to be removed to install the injectors and I plan to mount the Fab9 COP control unit on the shelf under the brake booster which will be easier to install with the intake manifold removed completely).

This car is awesome! I wish I could have rode in it with the big turbo on! Glad to see it finally coming all together. Now I need to get my ass in gear and go bigger turbo.

Actually the 90A alternator off a V6 mazda/probe solved it, the issues I'm having now are unrelated.

Expensive part? Were you able to use same belt?

I'm not sure if I want to fork out more money or just get a smaller fan. It is a very annoying issue. Depends how much the alternator is

I have ms2x btw

Can you increase idle target by 50-100 RPM? I've got the same fan and had the same issue last year. Now my CL idle needs some work to get it back to targets, it idles ~1200 RPM hot and barely notice when the fan kicks in. That thing sure does move some air.

Now that the A/C is gone I wish I had gone with the 13" model instead.

$30 at a junkyard with a 1 year warranty
the stock belt fits. you can use any KL-DE equipped car
Some of them came with 5 rib, some with 4 rib belts - but it still fits either way.

Some (MX-6, 626) have same plug as NA miatas, others (Millenia) have a different plug.

For mounting, the lower bolt sometimes goes back-to-front (MX-6) or front-to-back (Millenia) - it depends which hole of the lower mount is threaded.

The upper mounting ear is a little bit offset so I couldn't use a tensioner bolt = tension by brute force.

When your car is warm, it starts to heatsoak the IAT sensor. When this happens, the ECU is pulling lots of fuel, leaning the mixture (16-17:1 range).

This makes the engine lose lots of power, and something even as simple as both fans coming on will make the engine droop badly or even stall. By enabling closed loop, you are making sure that you always idle at 14.7:1 (or lower), so a stall won't happen.

Actually, I don't even remember when was the last time my car stalled and obviously I'm running closed loop all the time (in fact, I'm running closed loop per cylinder with the MS3).

I'm going to try this first. Should I still do the EGO control thing you said?
And if that doesn't work I'll try this second.

If anyone gets to do this (FrankB) before myself, please let us know results :bigtu:

What I said about EGO is what you should do. In some cases, setting the timing in the idle regions to 14 may also help.

I will give it a try. Hoping I can make it work with the stock alternator.

Will this possibly help the car from stalling when its coming out of gear. If I'm driving and just put the car in neutral, it will shut off unless i touch the pedal to maintain the RPM, almost like there's nothing there to "catch" it from falling below a certain point. This only happens once the car is warmed up.

The alternator will help but Rev is correct. The car should not take that big of a hit due to the additional electrical loads of a fan. It's my experience that each ECU will respond differently to this but MS was especially touchy.

I don't think anyone has pointed this out yet but the MSM relies on the ECU to make adjustments. They did this to solve this exact problem they can literally tune around and anticipate the additional loads.

I have the feeling an internally regulated alternator all together will substantially help or solve the problem (although you shouldn't dismiss the fact that you still probably have some tuning to do). It's not that the current alternator doesn't have the ability to overcome the load, it's that it does not respond quickly enough to take care of it. Yes, some of it is the sensitivity to your tune but I'm running two relatively high current fans that activate at the same time without a hiccup and all I did was swap to an older NA alternator that was internally regulated.

There's definitely tuning to do as I'm still on a rescaled basemap but I wanted to kind of rest easier knowing it was a tune and not hardware issue. It's odd that an NA alt worked for you since Soviet has an NA, maybe his alternator was from a non-regulated version.

Is there an external regulator around? Rev, any way to regulate alternator with the MS I have? This was listed as one of my features

+ Digital alternator control, adjustable

Some other random snaps from the build

Mocked up turbo
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

Headwork, this was a tedious assembly
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

Porting of the bowls (physical feel is smoother than what it looks like)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

Fab9 big boy intercooler
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

FM Oil cooler
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

Wedged between the radiator and intercooler is a Derale PS cooler that replaced the OEM hardlines
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

We made this bracket to keep the coolant reroute hose from rubbing the manifold. We used the center part that was cut out of this piece to make a plate for the OEM catchcan return to the pan
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

Were able to re-use just one of the stock MSM sleeves on the water return.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1400259066

That is a very nice build!

I'd love to see some in-car track vids when it is out!

Is that where the stock water return is on the msm's? That area sees ridiculously high temps, do you think that wrap will be enough?

That's not the same location as the stock turbo is a bottom mount. The fire sleeve on that is from the original. Since we eliminated the front coolant neck we eliminated the coolant flow from the housing on the side to the front neck to the throttle body to the oil cooler and back. Basically, the water returns into the tube that plugs into the coolant housing on the side. hasn't leaked yet.

The copper pinched nuts holding the turbo on however have turned gray.

This is an amazing looking build. And beautiful car also

Awesome build!! I can't wait to start with my MSM

Final results with a low 11s AFR. Could gain more from leaning it out but the tuner said the engine will run at this level forever so I'm happy with the reliability at the loss of a few HP. Funny that this thing makes more torque at 2500rpm than my daily driver makes at peak

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1411836052

@ how much boost?

wow very nice job

that powerband looks absolutely amazing

This is with 17psi

Haven't driven it yet, picking up tomorrow night, tuning by Ken Hill @oracle tuning

Looks totally fantastic.

Took me 3 more PSI to make essentially the same numbers. Edit: but not near as good of a torque curve, and I know the transient response isn't even in the same league.

I want me some EFR....

I've been reading some threads on here and it looks like I could have made more with a GT2560 hahaha

What kind of turbo do you have turbofan? I compared this to Soviet's old 6258 graph and his torque curve is even wilder than mine making IIRC 200wtq by 3000rpm. I'm not far off I don't think. My tuner has only done one other EFR car that had issues so it will be interesting to hear his opinions on the turbo and see some graphs of his other customers for comparison.

The interesting thing is
13psi = 275whp unknown torque (will inquire tomorrow)
15psi = 300whp and 270 torque
17psi = 311whp and 285 torque

I was shooting for 325 at the wheels and he thought it would be possible based on the jump from 13 to 15. Maybe it just made a little less cause it was the last run of the day and he had been on the dyno with it for about 2 hours. I don't think my ass will know the difference between 311 and 325 coming from ~220

I've got a 2871R on an absurdflow Mani.

Mine had similar intervals.

13 psi = 240 whp
14 psi = 260 whp & 220 tq
17 psi = 285 whp & 250 ish tq
20.5 psi = 317 whp & 283 tq

All #s uncorrected.

That one 2560 vs EFR thread makes no sense to me or anyone else so who knows.

I'll post driving impressions later tonight. I was expecting to get my power with lower psi as 99mx5 hit 323/272 on 14psi but he's got higher compression and deshrouded head. Tuner said 17psi is plenty fine and should hold together fairly well. It's not track driven, just spirited on the street and for occasional commuting so I'm hoping to get ~50k miles out of it. At the rate I drive that's over 10 years.

When I joined the forum I planned on getting an FM2 but everyone kept talking about artech and efr and things I never heard of before. Without this forum, this build wouldn't have been possible so thanks to everyone here for being awesome!

I don't think anyone else has had the outstanding results that Ari had. Iono. It seems like your results make more sense. It's always been said that the 6258 provides 2560 spool with 2871 power, right? It seems like it's actually slightly better than 2560 spool with slightly better than 2871 power.

Fantastic.

I just hope that my 3.63s and tires will leave wheelspin to a minimum, I'm honestly a bit intimidated by the torque figure and how quickly it rises, but we hope to get boost by gear wired in. The ecu can do it but we need to add wires somewhere.

At a bit of a crossroads. Have a spal 14" fan that keeps stalling the car. I can have boost by gear OR fan control but not both. I'm leaning towards either finding a smaller fan or a different alternator like soviet did because I do not want to lose boost by gear. I'll get to experience 17psi in 1-6 today and decide but I want it controllable

Right foot traction control? It's kinda fun to just light it up at 40 mph...

Yes it is. Just got it home. Car is incredibly fun and feels smooth and fast. Just gets up and goes like nothing. I'm like a pig in shit. Can't wait to see what it does out there among the other rice in the city.

Now invest in 4x4 suspension to get around those Philly roads and you're golden! LOL

You absolutely must get some videos for us.

And I beg for at least one of them to be of the speedo/tach as you wring the car out through a few gears.

Do it for science and entertainment :party:

They actually just re-paved all the local spots where people drag :rofl:

I've done that video before but I definitely need to keep both hands on the wheel now ha. It will be like the one Soviet has on youtube. I've watched it countless times haha

So now that the car is finally tuned and makes power it got me wondering. I'm not planning on selling the car anytime soon, but was wondering what my adventures and investments are worth on the current market.

If I was going to sell the car as it sits with all of the mods mentioned and tuned how much could I expect to get realistically? I see what bolt-on MSMs sell for but this is a bit different.

I paid $12.5 k for mine with the hardtop so I would say yours is probably in that ballpark. Tough thing is that it's not like this kind of car goes up for sale very often. Yours has some parts mine doesn't (diff goodies, EFR) but the absurdflow setup is sought after and hardtop.

Do you still have PS and AC?

I do, as well as full trunk and interior. I'd consider closer to 20k reasonable cause its got almost that much in aftermarket parts plus the labor plus the car itself.

It's funny hearing what you paid for yours and seeing how much people are trying to get for ones that are way more stock. Looks like it will stay with me and hopefully into the next generation

I didn't say it would be good news. You'd have to find a nutcase to pay $20k IMO.

Then again, I think your car is considerably more sorted than mine.

Always best to return to stock before you sell.

You'd maybe get $10k in my honest opinion. Considering I've been seeing low mile stock MSM's only going for $11k-$13k. Ones with minor bolt-ons go for considerably less. I think it would take quite a good amount of time to find a buyer who wouldn't lowball the fuck out of you and knows what went into the car. The market for built miatas is super small.

I think if I sold my car I would probably ask $9k and settle for $8k and a quick sale hopefully at $7.5k. I paid $12.5 out the door for it 5 years ago bone stock. But I've literally seen 3 clean msm's in the area sit for months at steal prices with no bites other than drift kids who only have a budget for $4k.

^I think you're pretty low here sir. Most MSMs I've seen listed under $9k either have a ton of miles or are not as clean as they look in the pics.

Edit: PS I'll give you $8k for your car.

If it lasts, and I think it should, mine goes to my son in VA. By the time that happens, it will be old enough to not have to pass pollution inspection.

I'd rather give it to family than to a stranger. Then again, I plan to be dead when it leaves my possession, because I cannot imagine the fun wearing off.

(Is this too off topic?)

Yea I know modded cars are worth less but I assumed it got to a point where it increased in value a little. None of my stuff is crazy expensive but it's all fairly high end. Putting te car back to stock at this point is more trouble than it's worth and most stock parts have been sold. With this new information, there's no way I'd take 12k unless I had to get emergency funds together like medical bills. I even told my girl when we have a kid, it's staying. I kept the baby seat brackets ;-)

I paid 14k for the car in 09 with 35k miles bone stock. Not including the parts I've installed and sold the current parts list retails for ~17k. There's no way I would lose almost $20,000. I see an appeal in buying a fully completed car, but I also understand a buyers weariness buying someone else's project cause you never know. Too many memories with it that are priceless like chasing 100+ exotics in NY state when my buddy was using it for a camera car. The rich people were even pretty receptive to it and asked questions. More fun for me! :-)

Yup. You might could pull closer to $15k with the right buyer, but who knows. It all depends on who is looking. When I was looking I would have happily paid $13k for your car, and more if I could have afforded it. You might find someone who just has to have it and would give $15k or so, but I doubt you'd find anyone willing to give any more than that.

Just my 2 cents.

Sure can't touch the performance for even close to $20,000 though hah. If I was on the other side of the fence and was looking at a car that's making double the factory power and has nothing original anymore I'd probably think $15,000 was a stretch too. It's different for me on this side because I had to put all the money and time into it, and got to assemble the motor at one point. It's just awesome to make something that can do what these cars do.

You'd have to lose an insane amount of money to move a car like this. Period.
They simply don't sell well, no matter what anyone thinks.
Which is why you shouldn't even be thinking of stuff like that :party:

So what exactly makes these EFR turbos better than the others. I understand the wheel is light and balanced better than most, but I just kind of hopped on the wagon and took everyone's word for it. Educate me plz

new tech?

Integrated bov, internal wastegate

^^ No extra piping for bov, actually given a "function" to spit back into the turbine. Internal wastegate, less complicated, less pipe, can be actually used for high boost with no issues as far as I know.

vbandalltehtings (more progress lately with efr v-band/tial news... but imo, no iwg no care)

small turbo spin up, big turbo flow.

fancy new wheel design and material
much bigger and stronger bearings
new tech comp and turbine housings with really cool features like integrated bov and a well flowing internal wg

its a nice turbo. I'm sure you're not disappointed, its a pretty solid band wagon you hopped onto :party:

My one letdown is I got mine during the period where Investment Casting was just too slow and I don't think BW could keep up with the demand. What's so special about the wastegate? Is it the angle that it merges into the rest of the flow at?

Some 4th gear action

Drive it like you stole it. Your car thinks you did (flashing immobilizer light) ;) Car sounds great.

The CEL is coming on for "knock" but my tuner said he took multiple logs and saw nothing resembling knock or detonation, nor have I had any problems or noises appear. He thinks the sensitivity for the sensor might need adjustment, he didn't want to set it to the point where it wouldn't pick up actual knock. Better safe than sorry, and I appreciate that.