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I prefer the MSM pan over the bp6d pan.
Sorry, I didn't realize you're starting with a MSM to begin with The MSM pan has the additional motor mount points just like the VVT. It's also PREDRILLED! for a turbo drain port.... I'm going to make an aluminum flange that bolts on and increase the size and angle of that drain. It also has a nice port for catch can drain back if you want to use it. I once had a MSM pan that the PO used for jacking the car up. Bad cracks. Mazda wanted $800 back then! I took it off, cleaned it up, and had it TIG welded. Still had minor seepage... Cleaned the bottom up (still in car) and smeared JB weld all over it. That finally sealed it up. What a PIA! I will NEVER remove a BP pan again without ripping engine out... |
On closer inspection, the #2 and #4 oil control rings did show some interesting wear. I’d need a microscope to really see, but they almost feel raised, like they wore into the grooves. Like someone re-ringed the motor and skipped the bore/hone it needed.
the top and second ring gaps measured out consistently at .032-.033”, which seems way high. Anybody know the if the MSM ring gap differs? Searched for a MSM manual but didn’t see much, I’d figure the gaps were opened up some but that seems excessive. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...43aad0a0b.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...aff5a374e.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...28ac77d1c.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c0f8ff67ca.png |
Originally Posted by technicalninja
(Post 1627867)
I prefer the MSM pan over the bp6d pan.
Sorry, I didn't realize you're starting with a MSM to begin with The MSM pan has the additional motor mount points just like the VVT. It's also PREDRILLED! for a turbo drain port.... I'm going to make an aluminum flange that bolts on and increase the size and angle of that drain. It also has a nice port for catch can drain back if you want to use it. I once had a MSM pan that the PO used for jacking the car up. Bad cracks. Mazda wanted $800 back then! I took it off, cleaned it up, and had it TIG welded. Still had minor seepage... Cleaned the bottom up (still in car) and smeared JB weld all over it. That finally sealed it up. What a PIA! I will NEVER remove a BP pan again without ripping engine out... |
OK! so some updates!
I added ID 1050x & R8 Coils. Did lots more street tuning. The car is running good enough, but I had suspicions about the motor. It's a little weak on #2 and #3, seems to be leaking intake valves. Lash is dead on, so something with the seat? Still runs fine and scoots along. It'll get me around until the new motor is built up. Been fixing a few other little annoying things - the HID retrofit the car came with was crap, so I redid it with new morimoto stuff - fixed some interior rattles and things of that nature. It's been super fun at this power level (stock IHI @ 10lbs of boost). I am having some return to idle stalling issues, seems like a lot of folks with the 1050x and NB2 fuel systems experience this. Maybe changing dead times due to injector heat soak. Currently propped up with big EGO authority and a careful right foot. I'm building the original motor, so far I've bought: Supertech 9.0:1 pistons w/ the Wiseco XX rings (shooting for .003-.0035 P2W, .017/.019 ring gaps) Manley Rods HD ARP Studs ARP Mains Boundary Oil Pump w/ 3 shims Kraken Top Mount EFR 6758 Kit Kraken IC Kit Fluidampr harmonic balancer w/ 36-2 wheel Supermiata puck clutch disc Supermiata reroute Squaretop Intake Manifold DW200 fuel pump Flex Fuel Sensor My crank needs to be ground so I've held off on buying bearings until I get word from the machine shop/can measure things myself. They came back with a really expensive quote (2k for just the block machine work) So I might shop around. Seems like others in the area are ~1200-1500 for labor (deck, bore, hone, align hone) Still need to buy/looking for advice on: -Headgasket. Looking at this one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...da/model/miata , which seems popular with SPS/YouTube folks. It is .055" thick, so I'm my plan was to wait on headwork until I know my installed piston/deck height. I would want to make up that ~.023" (less whatever they end up decking off the block) I'd gain over the stock .032" MLS gasket. OR I may just run an appropriately sized MLS gasket. My head needs to be decked anyways (and repaired, there was some erosion that I'll weld before it's decked) so I figured I'd make up the difference there. -Headwork Stuff: My stock valves are cupped. Seats are in good shape. I could get new valves or have the OEM ones ground.. Not sure what I want to do there. I don't have big RPM goals (stock MSM cams), but I do plan to give it some boost & do some track days. I'll definitely upgrade the springs, but need to decide which set. (ST? Kelford? Catcams?). Guides are concentric but loose - again prob wait until I decide on new valves before addressing the guides. -Aftermarket fuel rail/regulator - prob go with radium stuff and convert to a return style system. I already pulled a spare NB2 fuel feed line from the yard. -Skunk 2 Throttle body -3" cat + muffler(s) + tubing to fab an exhaust -catchcan setup I'm trying to build the motor to handle most of what that 6758 can throw at it, and then keep it in a detuned state for longevity. At least until I can justify upgrading the drivetrain. I also got a QRT-R but might sell it, it's a bit loose for my skinny ass! Mostly Stock MSM stuff: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...47dccbaa30.jpg |
The 6758 is capable of 500hp. Well beyond what our clutch will cope with. Rated at 340tq. Normally the pucks don't need to be broken in. But in your case I would definitely break it in on no or low boost for at least a 500 miles before applying the torques. If it is not going to be tuned on a dyno and it slips after break in, congratulations you're making a lot of power. If it is being tuned on the Dino, I would try to keep the torque below our max rating.
OMP HTE-R400 Fits the miata well and is tighter on the bottom. Our go to for pretty much any build. Junk2 TB. If you haven't already, do a little resarch on that. Return Spring isn't strong enough so they get stuck just above idle and all of the fasteners back out. They need a bit of set up before they're ready to go. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1630595)
The 6758 is capable of 500hp. Well beyond what our clutch will cope with. Rated at 340tq. Normally the pucks don't need to be broken in. But in your case I would definitely break it in on no or low boost for at least a 500 miles before applying the torques. If it is not going to be tuned on a dyno and it slips after break in, congratulations you're making a lot of power. If it is being tuned on the Dino, I would try to keep the torque below our max rating.
OMP HTE-R400 Fits the miata well and is tighter on the bottom. Our go to for pretty much any build. Junk2 TB. If you haven't already, do a little resarch on that. Return Spring isn't strong enough so they get stuck just above idle and all of the fasteners back out. They need a bit of set up before they're ready to go. I will def follow your break in advice. I'm not expecting miracles from the clutch, but as mentioned I do want to try to keep things detuned in the short term. I ended up with a 6758 because of a good deal.. ideally I'd get the 62 for my goals but hey, I can grow into this one. I am very interested in some of the drivetrain swap options, and will start collecting parts once I finish this phase of mods. Re the TB- I have read about the shortcomings. AFAIK any other options are going to likely be more work than fixing up the skunk? Any guidance for the valve train? *edit* some threads from over the years talking about BP valve train stuff. Listing here for other noobs riding up the same learning curve https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...lt-nb2-106011/ https://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep...t-82462/page7/ https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...m-82232/page2/ https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...ng-info-70450/ sounds like if I can get away with keeping the stock valve seats/not machining, then that's a plus. Stiffer is likely better for the springs, if I plan to get frisky with boost. Might replace the exhaust valves with stainless or inconel, and be careful to not grind the valve faces. Pay attention to the installed height to get the seat pressure correct. OEM intake valves are prob fine. |
Lots of seat pressure is a good thing. Don't try to gain flow by cutting thin valve seats. Keep them wide. If it is tuned conservatively and doesn't see a lot of high RPM track use, stock valves are fine. We would use inconel and stainless valves because we beat the crap out of them on track. In short, a completely bone stock and OEM dimension valve train with some stiff springs will work just fine. If you have the budget for it, throw some fancy valves at it.
The Junk2 is as good as it gets. I don't expect anyone will ever develop a better throttle body for the BP. If you have the time and money, you could probably adapt a better throttle body from another manifold but that would be an engineering project and some custom cnc stuff. |
Originally Posted by richbobby
(Post 1630596)
Re the TB- I have read about the shortcomings. AFAIK any other options are going to likely be more work than fixing up the skunk?.
As a result I have become practiced in the fixes. They are simple and effective in addressing the Junk's poor design and manufacture, and they don't break throttle shafts. Nuff said. A side benefit is that they are a bit bigger diameter so flow better, but that requires smoothing the transition with the manifold. |
cool! It's nice that the list of "big" stuff to buy is dwindling, now I can just let the project nickel and dime me to a slow death.
Hopefully I'll have the bottom end stuff wrapped up in 4-5 weeks. Decided to do valves, and replace all the guides. Not sure which yet.. the machine shop is going to try to see if they can get some ferrea's to work, or roll the dice with supertech. |
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f530b086e2.jpg
Supertech it is. Standard Stainless intake, +1 inconel exhaust. Heavy double spring set. The machine shop has been properly drenched with my paranoia about ST valves and their reported failures. I should bring them some doughnuts. |
Head is done, build sheets attached. Any thoughts on the seat load spread? it's only 8%, which seems reasonable, curious what more experienced builders target ?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...47e99b1590.png https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...48c6832a16.png I welded a -10 oil return on the oil pan, added two -10 breather ports on the VC, and DIY powder coated them along with the Square Top intake manifold. I only had 2% lanthenated tungsten which was not working well on these dirty cast parts. Good enough for this, though. A friend has a dedicated oven and the Eastwood powder coat setup. Def into this over paint, but like any finishing work it’s only as good as your prep. I think having a sandblaster is really the only way you’ll get complex cast parts to have a nice finish. I might invest in a setup, or put together a DIY vapor blast cabinet. I don’t have a ton of space but that’s such a time saver, it might be worth figuring that out. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e33a8601df.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6a5618c73b.jpg I want to take the mazdaspeed back to stock, so I can get a known-good smog configuration, and sell off any aftermarket stuff I will not be using. I’ll yank the drivetrain that’s in there now and keep it on the side. If I need to, I’ll drop it back in for smog. Otherwise, I'm just collecting parts and cleaning/prepping stuff for the engine build. At this point I'm down to selecting/purchasing fuel system stuff. I hope to get the engine together in Jan. |
Progress is being made. fresh coat
https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/0/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3563.HEIC3024×4032 2.69 MB plastigauge backed up my blueprint measurements https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/9/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3568.HEIC3024×4032 2.3 MB mains torqued. super smooth https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/d/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3576.HEIC3024×4032 2.84 MB Rod assemblies staged. Had a moment, went to install the 4th piston and something seemed weird. They printed their logo on the “wrong” side relative to the other pistons. I wasn’t referencing the logo when assembling but still had a oh crud moment https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/2/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3577.HEIC3024×4032 3.08 MB Popping in pistons. this guide rules and made it super easy. Rod journals were on point too. https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/4/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3579.HEIC3024×4032 2.84 MB The windage tray fouled the mains studs, so I had to modify before installing the oil pan. I didn’t take pics of that whole fiasco because I tend to work as fast as possible like an insane person. Maybe also b/c high on brake clean fumes, who knows. Anyways all the slidy guys are installed and we’re ready for the head studs/head https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/3/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3585.HEIC3024×4032 2.62 MB head on & torqued https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/d/...2_375x500.jpeg IMG_3587.HEIC3024×4032 3.22 MB threw on the intake and exhaust mani’s and turbo for some visual progress. It was a long day! Cant wait to make some pssh pssh noises with this thing https://static.tarck.cc/images/emoji...smile.png?v=12 https://cdn.tarck.cc/optimized/3X/1/...2_375x500.jpeg 69787961074__D9150FC0-D7A9-440A-ADF5-E94D0DE92734.HEIC3024×4032 3.07 MB into the car next weekend! unfortunately the 6758 I bought used has a super hammered compressor wheel. Borg is trying to find a replacement for me, and it looks like there are some import options. Bummed because when I asked the seller, he said everything was minty fresh. Win some cats, loose some cats :/ https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3745cbc9a1.jpg |
Anybody know any West Coast shops that ill balance a turbo? I have a line on a new wheel but will need to get the assembly balanced out. My local guy's balance rig is down right now.
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Wow. Lots has happened since my last post.
Engine went in https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4b6d1e96f8.jpg Got some more parts installed in there. Got a full exhaust from Kraken with converter. Borrowed a buncha the orange heat shield from my old job building rocket stuff https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bbbc998261.jpg Made up a little intake. Moved some parts around. Everything fits in there nicely now. Since this pic I ended up massaging the setup, the catch can was interfering with the PS line and pushing into the AC compressor when the engine torqued https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7eeb9b3fcf.jpg Somehow I don't have any more recent pics of the engine bay. I hooked up a 4 port Mac solenoid, Turbosmart IWG75, Circuit Sports coolant res. Ditched the AWR motormounts for roadstersport rubbers from Goodwin. Much better suited to this car, which gets daily driven. I did some tuning, got the car running nice on 91 and 13-14 lbs of boost. I also pulled the trans and changed the clutch setup. The Supermiata 4 puck was awesome to drive, but I am in stop/go so much that I could not justify the poor slow speed manners. I threw the SM organic disc back in with an ACT extreme PP. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1582770e4a.jpg The stock seat was killing my back, and I was hitting my head on the roof of the hard top going over bumps. Pulled the trigger on an EVO S, which fits my skinny butt perfect. I bought a used mount off a spec miata kid, cut out the humps and welded some 1/8" plate to the floor. Caught the carpet on fire in the process, luckily it's under the seat sooo NBD. The underside of my carpet is really oily, maybe from the PO driving around with the smoke screen motor and not giving a hoot. Think that's how it went up so quick. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...08ce6b2935.jpg E85 is some lovely stuff. It even smells good! Ive tuned it up to 20psi. which is such overkill. Have it back down to 16-17 and it's providing all the thrills. Can't wait to get this thing to the drag strip with Carlos (sonofthehill) for some runs before I turn it up more. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...22b965197a.jpg I have the driveway from Heck https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2421684708.jpg Always be tuning https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5c905b7f11.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d64a7b9448.jpg I've been driving the car a ton, and slowly refining and improving/tuning/adjusting things. My to-do list is finally slowing down...for this round of modifications. I NEED to get rid of these smoked taillights. Anybody want to trade? So all that is great, but this engine is on the noisy side, especially when cold under neutral and light throttle. Been over every nut and bolt externally to see if I can find anything. The best way I can describe it is a high frequency clatter between 2700 and 3500 rpm. "piston rattle" The engine is healthy, compression is spot on 180 each cyl, leak down is ~2.5% (on my crappy HF gauge). If it was a bearing issue the engine would be destroyed already, and I have no real glitter in the oil. Valvetrain is in spec, and has not changed over the several times ive checked. Think it is just the parts and clearances I selected. Supertech 9:1, .0032" P2W. Idk. It goes away when the engine/oil gets nice and hot. I need to borrow the borescope from work and have a look to see if there is any cyl wall damage. I’m 50/50 on pulling the engine and tearing it down to inspect. While I’m annoyed by the noise -it sucks to spend a bunch on a motor and have it sound so clattery- this thing loves boost and is perfectly happy when you’re running hard. I'm suspicious it's the pistons, and if I tear it down I’d prob change brands, which would mean a refresh from my long lead machine shop. maybe this winter if the motor lives that long. |
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