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Old 06-01-2015, 02:48 PM   #1
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Default New guy, dumb SC questions right off the bat

Hey guys. I'm weinerdog because I have both a weiner and a weinerdog. I'm here to learn, lurk, and occasionally ask the noob questions because I'm in the planning stages of a supercharger for my 1990. I hope I'm not too out of the loop seeing that this seems to be a cat/turbo driven forum and I'm a dog/SC kinda guy. I do have a ten year old Himalayan long haired cat though, and she's the queen of the house. Hope to stick around and make some friends.

While I have you, let me ask a few questions instead of clogging up the place with an abundance of threads.

-Would you recommend an engine rebuild for a 1.6 short nose crank (SNC) with 140,000 miles prior to a SC? What would be some warning signs of an engine not fit for a SC application? (besides crank wobble of course.) Is a compression test the only "green light" I'd need?

-What timing do you all recommend? I have 13* timing on my N/A engine, so should I reset it to 10? I intend on using the factory ECU/AFM initially and then working with perhaps an MS setup later on once I iron out the SC and get used to things.

-JRSC MP62 vs the new Kraftwerks? I like the more pronounced whine of the MP62, but if the latter kit is more reliable then so be it. I've also read Revlimiter's nightmare of the FFS system, but heard they're much better now. Power goals: 160-180 neighborhood. I DD the car and occasionally autox. No track use in the forseeable future.


See you guys around, hope I fit in.

Last edited by weinerdog; 06-01-2015 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:52 PM   #2
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1) Rebuild if necessary. But if it needs a whole rebuild, i'd just swap a 1.8 in. Do a compression test.

2) Weird question. You'd want to set to 10 then manipulate ignition timing on a 16x16 map in Tunerstudio.

3) Power goals? Use of vehicle?
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:55 PM   #3
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1) Rebuild if necessary. But if it needs a whole rebuild, i'd just swap a 1.8 in. Do a compression test.

2) Weird question. You'd want to set to 10 then manipulate ignition timing on a 16x16 map in Tunerstudio.

3) Power goals? Use of vehicle?
Of course. Thank you, and let me update my OP.

-I guess I'm more concerned of looking for warning signs of an engine not fit for SC.

- Let's say I run with the AFM first and then start working with new brains. Perhaps that better clarifies.

-Anywhere from 160-180 hp. Nothing insane. It is my DD and I autox every so often.
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:59 PM   #4
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Warning signs for a 1.6 before boost: it doesn't run.
Everything else is not a warning sign. You know why? cuase it's the cheapest crappiest engine known to miata's and blowing it up and replacing with 1.8 would be doing yourself a favor

So boost it, molest it, abuse it, throw it away.
The most fun can be had when you honeybadger an engine. Enjoy that
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by weinerdog View Post
Of course. Thank you, and let me update my OP.

-I guess I'm more concerned of looking for warning signs of an engine not fit for SC.

- Let's say I run with the AFM first and then start working with new brains. Perhaps that better clarifies.

-Anywhere from 160-180 hp. Nothing insane. It is my DD and I autox every so often.
I'd say you're doing it backwards, then.

Brains first. Then brawn.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:12 PM   #6
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- engine rebuild: I wouldn't rebuild an early 1.6. Go with an NA 1.8 or source a solid late '91-'93. It all depends on your goals.

- timing: depends on what fuel you can get, if you have an MT or an AT, and what type of engine management you are going to run. The JR install guide (google it, download it, read it) recommends 8 for MTs and 6 for ATs (if memory serves)

- I don't think there is a JRSC MP62 kit for the 1.6. The JRSC for the 1.6 is based on a gen III eaton M45. This is a good charger if you don't plan on high hp (>150 or so). I am currently running an intercooled, overspun M45 @ 10psi @ 6000 ft. This set-up requires several supporting mods, including stand-alone engine management, and drive-train upgrades (7" diff, high torque clutch, injectors, fuel pump, ...). The basic non-intercooled JRSC kit with the mechanical FMU or piggy-backs is a pretty solid power adder that requires little maintenance. IMO A 62 cubic inch charger is overkill on the 1.6 UNLESS you are prepared to do the things necessary to take advantage of the displacement. The Kraftwerks vs positive displacement decision is very much dependent on your objectives. The Kraftwerks uses a centrifugal compressor wheel, which has to reach a certain RPM to develop pressure. The boost in this type of setup will not kick in until you hit a certain RPM, much like a turbo. The roots style (and twinscrew) will provide almost instantaneous boost when the bypass valve closes.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both technologies. If you really want to go SC, get Corky Bell's book and read it before doing anything else.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:12 PM   #7
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So boost it, molest it, abuse it, throw it away.
With all due respect I've never been a fan of doing this. However I really do appreciate the advice and a 1.8 swap is definitely not out of the picture.

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I'd say you're doing it backwards, then.

Brains first. Then brawn.
Gotcha. Sounds reasonable. I presume a MSPNP would be my best option for a pain free install? As you can tell, I am new at this. Don't worry, I am researching heavily and trying not to rely on spoon feeding.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weinerdog View Post
With all due respect I've never been a fan of doing this. However I really do appreciate the advice and a 1.8 swap is definitely not out of the picture.



Gotcha. Sounds reasonable. I presume a MSPNP would be my best option for a pain free install? As you can tell, I am new at this. Don't worry, I am researching heavily and trying not to rely on spoon feeding.
Yes, a DIY Autotune MSPNP or an MSLabs MS3 Basic would be the easiest to install.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:25 PM   #9
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Yes, a DIY Autotune MSPNP or an MSLabs MS3 Basic would be the easiest to install.
Excellent. Thank you again, man.

The FFS website advertises a "Complete Plug and Play FFS Engine Management with Boost Fuel, Timing Control + ECool" brain. I assume this would be just as well in place of a MSPNP given my power/car goals?
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Warning signs for a 1.6 before boost: it doesn't run.
The other warning sign is that you find yourself considering spending money on parts that only bolt to a 1.6. Turbo exhaust manifolds are the major issue here.

--Ian
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weinerdog View Post
The FFS website advertises a "Complete Plug and Play FFS Engine Management with Boost Fuel, Timing Control + ECool" brain. I assume this would be just as well in place of a MSPNP given my power/car goals?
no


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Old 06-01-2015, 03:46 PM   #12
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Unless you REALLY need that whine, if all you're looking for is 160whp then a VVT swap + ECU and bolt ons is probably the way to go.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
no


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Old 06-01-2015, 04:23 PM   #14
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Right. Gotcha. Pretend I never asked about that engine management lol. I found my answer online and forgot to delete it off here. In any case, I'm off to do some more research. It's looking like 190 hp is feasible with a SC and 94-97 1.8 engine, so this is the combo I will be researching for now.

MP62 supercharger (Does Moss still sell their MP62?)
94-97 1.8 engine with FM swap kit
MSPNP engine management/ECU.

By the way, a huge thank you to you guys helping me out. I really appreciate everything.
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Old 06-01-2015, 04:43 PM   #15
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What's your question? Is that a decent 190hp setup? Yep, that should do it
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:33 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by weinerdog View Post
MP62 supercharger (Does Moss still sell their MP62?)
IIRC, there's a BRP MP62 w/ TDR intercooler in the mt.net classifieds right now.

--Ian
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:28 AM   #17
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Welcome, weinerdog. Check out the Miata Gallery and post up some pics!
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:41 AM   #18
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I want to say a big thank you to all of you who had helped me out in my venture. I have done a lot of research and gotten most of my big kinks and questions ironed out. Here is a detailed plan of attack for the upcoming year.

If you guys see any issues or have any suggestions, please let me know, but I think this covers everything for a very good SC setup. Of course if there are any cheaper prices you know of, that works too...ha ha.


Engine (do first): $1,700 ballpark
• 94-97 1.8 engine. Used: $600 neighborhood
• Exhaust manifold. Raceland: $160
• Flyin’ Miata 1.8 rebuild kit: $612
• Flyin’ Miata 1.6 -> 1.8 swap kit: $266
ECU/Engine management (do second): $850 ballpark
• Megasquirt PNP. New @ TDR: $800
Clutch/flywheel (do third): $370 ballpark
• FM Level 1 clutch: $350
Supercharger options (do fourth): $2,500 ballpark
• JRSC MP62. Used: $2,000 neighborhood

GRAND TOTAL (Estimate): $5,000
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
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• Flyin’ Miata 1.8 rebuild kit: $612
I would find a used engine without a ton of miles with good compression and skip the rebuild. Any reason you're set on a supercharger vs turbo. For a low power street car I think it's generally accepted that turbo will be cheaper. Don't want to start a turbo vs supercharger discussion that's been beaten to death plenty of times, but it's at least worth considering. This is miataturbo.net after all!
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:57 PM   #20
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VVT motor all the way. Don't even need a supercharger to hit your power goal. well maybe you do for your new 190hp goal.

They can't be much more expensive than a 94-97 motor, and are surely cheaper than an NB1 motor.
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