Not a Newb, purchased a '04 MSM
02-23-2020, 11:04 AM
#1
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 247
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Not a Newb, purchased a '04 MSM
Hey,
I started lurking in 2010 and have less than 100 posts since I joined...I figured I'd introduce myself before asking more questions. I used to be a professional violinist up until 2003/2005 when I started working for USPS. Back in college while I worked on my Master degree (1998-2001?) I ordered a used 323 GTX manifold and turbo from Japan and managed to turbocharge my 1995 Escort GT well enough that it ran 97 mph in the quarter mile. It had a Jacob's electronics adjustable boost retard box, a nearly disabled BEGI FMU that never worked well (imagine that!), larger 460cc injectors, and an Apex'i S-AFC controlled by a MAP sensor (mainly used to reduce fuel when not in boost).
In 2009 I joined the Miata family purchasing an Emerald Mica, '99 base Miata. I'd always wanted one but at 6'3" I didn't think it was worth a test drive. Man was I wrong and glad I gave them a chance buying what I thought was a good deal. The car was rough with lots of problems and I fixed many things and was planning on turbocharging when I found a Sunlight Silver, '01 LS with only 40k miles. I sold the '99 losing >$1500 but was glad to upgrade. I had tried tuning a Reverent built MS2 enhanced but between the car and the Innovate LC-1 being defective and randomly freezing fully lean (wiring was confirmed to be ok), I gave up. I sold the ECU and WBO2 at a loss and decided to keep the '01 normally aspirated.
After driving the '01 for seven years, I again started to yearn for a turbo vehicle. I found a Lava Orange but wasn't happy with the out of state seller. He was curbstoning and doing everything possible to avoid taxes making unusual payment demands so I started looking back through my bookmarked cars. There was a '04 MSM on eBay with >24k that I had passed over because the price was a few thousand higher than the others. When I read the actual description the price difference became clear. It had something like $15,000 in modifications! I won it for the opening bid and it had been listed on Miata.net for months with the price dropping as the seller started out asking near $18,000. I also believe the Hydra Nemesis 2.6 and the fact that it's been on a few tracks between two owners scared Miata non-enthusiasts away. After flying out and inspecting it I learned it started a bit slowly and idled roughly until warm, then ran REALLY strong. It has the full FM2 upgrade (I/C, Garret 2560) along with Fat Cat tuned Bilsteins (400/300 springs), Racing Beat largest front sway bar with support blocks (rear bar was removed), Konig 16x7 lightweight wheels, Elise seats, Boss Frog double hoop roll bar, HARDTOP, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, racing bra/mirror covers, clear vinyl paint protection, and more that I'm forgetting.
Before buying the car I had emailed Flyin' Miata after reading they offered tuning support for a fee even to new owners of cars with their hardware. A week later I drove the car 1800 miles home and put it up on jack stands as I did maintenance and a brake job on all four corners to make it more street friendly. The Porterfield RS4 brake pads didn't bite well, especially when cold. Once I got the faulty OEM IAT sensor replaced with a GM sensor and got it off the jack stands I started tuning but I only had a day or two before I had to park it for the Winter.
Thankfully I have what seems to be the FM base map so I could compare the ECU tune on the laptop side by side to the base file loaded onto my 60" HTPC setup. The second owner bought an old laptop that came with the car but it doesn't have autotuned fuel unlocked. I added more timing below target idle speed to avoid drooping/stalling and leaned out the idle area a bit (smelled very rich). Then I added more fuel prime to get it starting faster. I drove around the block to see how to record a data log but didn't get very far and it wasn't making much sense. It seems to be running VERY rich.
I recalibrated the WBO2 sensor while it was up on jack stands but it might be the original sensor from the 2009 installation of the parts. Come spring I think I'll try my hand at more tuning. The Mazda IAT sensor was reading 25-30F colder than actual air temp so I'm guessing it'll be running leaner. My main concern is making sure it's not too lean under boost and then I can focus on a leaner idle/cruise. I managed 28 mpg at 78-83 mph on the drive home. I am however HATING the software after tuning the MS2 enhanced back in 2012!
FM finally replied 5 weeks after I'd bought the car to tell me they no longer offer tuning support at any cost. They also told me it has long term fuel trim but that's only on the 2.7 ECU. I have STFT, but not LTFT. I was NOT impressed and they didn't provide any leads on tuners (Jeremy?). Ken Hill retired from taking on new customers in 2018 so I'm **** out of luck if I can't figure it out myself.
I emailed NemesisEMS but they are forcing older ECU versions to upgrade. I've read this is SOP so I asked for an upgrade quote but doubt I'll be going to go down that path. Either way, with Hydra 2.7 or with a new MS3 I'll be starting over tuning from a base map. I'm probably going to need assistance and don't know where to start in the Twin Cities areas. I'm not looking for dyno queen numbers, just good drivability, reliability and decent power 220-250 HP.
In the future I can see myself paying to upgrade the LSD gears to 3.6 ratio and possibly building a block minimally so I can run at or slightly past 250 RWHP without worrying about the engine. I may also pay to have a seat drop pan installed so I can finally fit under the roof comfortably. Even with the Elise seats on OEM sliders, my head is nearly touching the soft and hard top roofs. Almost no difference from my '01 LS leather seats after foamectomy. If I sit up straight my head hits. I doubt I'll ever get into competitive Autocross racing and doubt it'll ever see track time while I own it but it would be nice to get my head under the roll bar height!
I know the general consensus is to replace the POS Hydra with anything else but I am going to give it a few more hours attempting to tune this Hydra 2.6 despite the crap software. If I can't climb the steep learning curve and cannot find anybody to polish the tune I'll probably be installing an MS3. I know I'd have an easier time tuning it but am hesitant to start over. I was having trouble getting the '99 to idle well on the MS2. Any leads on tuning assistance is greatly appreciated. I think I read there is at least one person here that remotely tunes MS3 Miata (18psi?).
I promise I'll keep future tuning questions shorter and more concise.
Jess
I started lurking in 2010 and have less than 100 posts since I joined...I figured I'd introduce myself before asking more questions. I used to be a professional violinist up until 2003/2005 when I started working for USPS. Back in college while I worked on my Master degree (1998-2001?) I ordered a used 323 GTX manifold and turbo from Japan and managed to turbocharge my 1995 Escort GT well enough that it ran 97 mph in the quarter mile. It had a Jacob's electronics adjustable boost retard box, a nearly disabled BEGI FMU that never worked well (imagine that!), larger 460cc injectors, and an Apex'i S-AFC controlled by a MAP sensor (mainly used to reduce fuel when not in boost).
In 2009 I joined the Miata family purchasing an Emerald Mica, '99 base Miata. I'd always wanted one but at 6'3" I didn't think it was worth a test drive. Man was I wrong and glad I gave them a chance buying what I thought was a good deal. The car was rough with lots of problems and I fixed many things and was planning on turbocharging when I found a Sunlight Silver, '01 LS with only 40k miles. I sold the '99 losing >$1500 but was glad to upgrade. I had tried tuning a Reverent built MS2 enhanced but between the car and the Innovate LC-1 being defective and randomly freezing fully lean (wiring was confirmed to be ok), I gave up. I sold the ECU and WBO2 at a loss and decided to keep the '01 normally aspirated.
After driving the '01 for seven years, I again started to yearn for a turbo vehicle. I found a Lava Orange but wasn't happy with the out of state seller. He was curbstoning and doing everything possible to avoid taxes making unusual payment demands so I started looking back through my bookmarked cars. There was a '04 MSM on eBay with >24k that I had passed over because the price was a few thousand higher than the others. When I read the actual description the price difference became clear. It had something like $15,000 in modifications! I won it for the opening bid and it had been listed on Miata.net for months with the price dropping as the seller started out asking near $18,000. I also believe the Hydra Nemesis 2.6 and the fact that it's been on a few tracks between two owners scared Miata non-enthusiasts away. After flying out and inspecting it I learned it started a bit slowly and idled roughly until warm, then ran REALLY strong. It has the full FM2 upgrade (I/C, Garret 2560) along with Fat Cat tuned Bilsteins (400/300 springs), Racing Beat largest front sway bar with support blocks (rear bar was removed), Konig 16x7 lightweight wheels, Elise seats, Boss Frog double hoop roll bar, HARDTOP, Magnaflow 2.5" exhaust, racing bra/mirror covers, clear vinyl paint protection, and more that I'm forgetting.
Before buying the car I had emailed Flyin' Miata after reading they offered tuning support for a fee even to new owners of cars with their hardware. A week later I drove the car 1800 miles home and put it up on jack stands as I did maintenance and a brake job on all four corners to make it more street friendly. The Porterfield RS4 brake pads didn't bite well, especially when cold. Once I got the faulty OEM IAT sensor replaced with a GM sensor and got it off the jack stands I started tuning but I only had a day or two before I had to park it for the Winter.
Thankfully I have what seems to be the FM base map so I could compare the ECU tune on the laptop side by side to the base file loaded onto my 60" HTPC setup. The second owner bought an old laptop that came with the car but it doesn't have autotuned fuel unlocked. I added more timing below target idle speed to avoid drooping/stalling and leaned out the idle area a bit (smelled very rich). Then I added more fuel prime to get it starting faster. I drove around the block to see how to record a data log but didn't get very far and it wasn't making much sense. It seems to be running VERY rich.
I recalibrated the WBO2 sensor while it was up on jack stands but it might be the original sensor from the 2009 installation of the parts. Come spring I think I'll try my hand at more tuning. The Mazda IAT sensor was reading 25-30F colder than actual air temp so I'm guessing it'll be running leaner. My main concern is making sure it's not too lean under boost and then I can focus on a leaner idle/cruise. I managed 28 mpg at 78-83 mph on the drive home. I am however HATING the software after tuning the MS2 enhanced back in 2012!
FM finally replied 5 weeks after I'd bought the car to tell me they no longer offer tuning support at any cost. They also told me it has long term fuel trim but that's only on the 2.7 ECU. I have STFT, but not LTFT. I was NOT impressed and they didn't provide any leads on tuners (Jeremy?). Ken Hill retired from taking on new customers in 2018 so I'm **** out of luck if I can't figure it out myself.
I emailed NemesisEMS but they are forcing older ECU versions to upgrade. I've read this is SOP so I asked for an upgrade quote but doubt I'll be going to go down that path. Either way, with Hydra 2.7 or with a new MS3 I'll be starting over tuning from a base map. I'm probably going to need assistance and don't know where to start in the Twin Cities areas. I'm not looking for dyno queen numbers, just good drivability, reliability and decent power 220-250 HP.
In the future I can see myself paying to upgrade the LSD gears to 3.6 ratio and possibly building a block minimally so I can run at or slightly past 250 RWHP without worrying about the engine. I may also pay to have a seat drop pan installed so I can finally fit under the roof comfortably. Even with the Elise seats on OEM sliders, my head is nearly touching the soft and hard top roofs. Almost no difference from my '01 LS leather seats after foamectomy. If I sit up straight my head hits. I doubt I'll ever get into competitive Autocross racing and doubt it'll ever see track time while I own it but it would be nice to get my head under the roll bar height!
I know the general consensus is to replace the POS Hydra with anything else but I am going to give it a few more hours attempting to tune this Hydra 2.6 despite the crap software. If I can't climb the steep learning curve and cannot find anybody to polish the tune I'll probably be installing an MS3. I know I'd have an easier time tuning it but am hesitant to start over. I was having trouble getting the '99 to idle well on the MS2. Any leads on tuning assistance is greatly appreciated. I think I read there is at least one person here that remotely tunes MS3 Miata (18psi?).
I promise I'll keep future tuning questions shorter and more concise.
Jess
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02-23-2020, 11:18 AM
#2
mkturbo.com
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,177
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Welcome.
Check out Evans Performance Academy. I recommend spending the $50 for a month subscription and watching his tuning videos for MS. They will give you a ton of info.
The MS3 is a ton better at tuning idle then the MS2.
Check out Evans Performance Academy. I recommend spending the $50 for a month subscription and watching his tuning videos for MS. They will give you a ton of info.
The MS3 is a ton better at tuning idle then the MS2.
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02-24-2020, 07:10 PM
#4
Junior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 247
Total Cats: 38
Thanks Miataki,
It's great to learn there are a few Hydra owners nearby. I found TBraunksi (Tom) on Miata.net. I think he's running 2.7 on his more mildly modified MSM but doesn't have tuning experience with his car. Like me, he bought it used. Do you know if anybody has tuning experience with their car? It' be extremely helpful if I can find a Miata owner familiar with 2.6 software and willing to guide me if/when I get stuck even if it's paid support. Over the weekend I read for hours and downloaded, installed, and unlocked Data Log Lab. That should help with reading log files. My only attempted data log before parking it for Winter left me confused trying to read the log in Nemesis software.
It's great to learn there are a few Hydra owners nearby. I found TBraunksi (Tom) on Miata.net. I think he's running 2.7 on his more mildly modified MSM but doesn't have tuning experience with his car. Like me, he bought it used. Do you know if anybody has tuning experience with their car? It' be extremely helpful if I can find a Miata owner familiar with 2.6 software and willing to guide me if/when I get stuck even if it's paid support. Over the weekend I read for hours and downloaded, installed, and unlocked Data Log Lab. That should help with reading log files. My only attempted data log before parking it for Winter left me confused trying to read the log in Nemesis software.
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02-25-2020, 08:21 AM
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 82
Total Cats: 5
Unfortunately - we have all had to master parts of our own tune due to non-support. @Der_Idiot is an additional local resource also running 2.7 same as me.
- did you find this - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sx3bf5mkw...SlhDAds7a?dl=0 and have you downloaded the base maps? This spring, begin by installing the base map and running the data logger. Let's start there with you sharing the data log. Then maybe furthering assistance as required.
- did you find this - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sx3bf5mkw...SlhDAds7a?dl=0 and have you downloaded the base maps? This spring, begin by installing the base map and running the data logger. Let's start there with you sharing the data log. Then maybe furthering assistance as required.
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02-25-2020, 05:26 PM
#6
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Thanks Miataki, yes I found those files but wasn't sure until very recently that they were FM's files. I used the 2.6 base map (MSM 550) to guide my adjustments in the idle area (fuel and timing) to fix idle droop/stalling and added more fuel prime to get it starting faster. I barely had time to learn before I had to park it but I was happy to be making progress. After I got the car home and removed the hardtop it became obvious the engine was idling overly rich from the strong exhaust smell. I saved and backed up the original tune and think I'll start tweaking it hoping to avoid starting over with the base map. If I have to start over upgrading becomes more attractive. I'm not looking to pay somebody to totally tune it or spoon feed me, I enjoy saturating my mind with new stuff and the feeling when the puzzle starts to come together. Plus, I live by the saying if you want it done right, do it yourself!
I need to install 2.7 software on my HTPC and check it out. NemesisEMS gave me a price quote and offered a support package for 2.6 (not remote tuning) for $125. I think that also unlocks the auto fuel tuning capability that is locked on my software (not the original laptop that tuned the car). Upgrading to 2.7 sounded like a better deal but they want something like $250-275 for a new sensor. I know I can wire in my own replacement for cheaper. It looked like it'd cost at least $750 to go with 2.7 Hydra with a new WBO2 sensor compared to ~$1400 for MS3 Pro P&P and sensor. Even at twice the price I think I'd rather switch to MS but the best solution is adjusting my 2.6 tune. I don't want/need launch control, flat shift, boost by gear, traction control even though it looks like most of that is possible with 2.6. I want a reliable tune between 220-250 RWHP, good drivability and idle control, and decent cruising fuel economy. I'm off to play with the 2.6 software to see if I can find STFT or LTFT data. I might have passed over it and it'd be nice to use that data to help tweak the fuel map.
I need to install 2.7 software on my HTPC and check it out. NemesisEMS gave me a price quote and offered a support package for 2.6 (not remote tuning) for $125. I think that also unlocks the auto fuel tuning capability that is locked on my software (not the original laptop that tuned the car). Upgrading to 2.7 sounded like a better deal but they want something like $250-275 for a new sensor. I know I can wire in my own replacement for cheaper. It looked like it'd cost at least $750 to go with 2.7 Hydra with a new WBO2 sensor compared to ~$1400 for MS3 Pro P&P and sensor. Even at twice the price I think I'd rather switch to MS but the best solution is adjusting my 2.6 tune. I don't want/need launch control, flat shift, boost by gear, traction control even though it looks like most of that is possible with 2.6. I want a reliable tune between 220-250 RWHP, good drivability and idle control, and decent cruising fuel economy. I'm off to play with the 2.6 software to see if I can find STFT or LTFT data. I might have passed over it and it'd be nice to use that data to help tweak the fuel map.
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03-22-2020, 07:41 PM
#7
Howdy, I actually have TWO (2) Hydra 2.7 units now. I need to get the second installed in my non-turbo chassis. Tuning can be a challenge but once you get up on it you'll have no problem going through the setup. JM up in Maple Grove did a great job on my EFR build. I suggest giving them a call if you need a local tuner to do the heavy lifting, so to speak..
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03-23-2020, 10:11 AM
#9
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Thanks, I was reading your build thread after another local pointed me in your direction. If I get stuck tuning I might see if you have any pointers. Thanks for the JM Automotive info, they are less than 5 minutes drive from my house...never noticed them before. I read Hydra was more common on Subies and was wondering if I might find one to tune my Hydra 2.6 if I decide I'm in over my head.
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