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Old 01-24-2014, 10:19 PM   #1
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I am not good with turbo.

I am pretty good with Miatae though. Currently an owner of a (red, what else) 90 that was brought back from the brink of death. I've just decided it was a good plan to remove the engine to swap in a complete MSM unit. I've joined up to do plenty of reading, and possibly buy an ECU from a resident assembler.

My prior Miata was a Crystal White-ish '91 that had a tendency to shed paint, and was a slow progression toward SCCA STS spec.

I've done plenty of AutoX with my local club over the last 5 years, I prefer the "not taking it too seriously" route versus playing with the SCCA folks.

Decided to do the MSM swap since I've learned plenty about suspension and safety setup, thought I'd try my hand at FI.

Old car:


Didn't care for it car:


Superior master race:


Day two of '90 ownership. Faded, scratched, dented, pissing coolant and brake fluid... re-assembling improperly installed eBay suspension:


Some moderate paint refurb, Kosei's and Z2's:


Goodbai 1.6:
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:47 AM   #2
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Madison Wisconsin? Madison where?
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:04 AM   #3
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Nice intro!
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:28 AM   #4
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Madison Wisconsin?
Guillltttyyyyy
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:00 PM   #5
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Welcome to the site [email protected], thanks for joining up!
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:08 PM   #6
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JT what is the spec on those black basketweaves? It should be on the front of the wheel near the lugs. They look like 13x5.5 ET18?

Explain more about the MS engine swap. Unless its cheap id just refresh that 1.6 and throw an ebay cast manifold and China turbo on it.
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:30 PM   #7
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X2 on ditching the MSM swap. Even if it's cheap, it's basically a '99-00 motor with the world's worst turbo setup attached (and a later-style head gasket, and different cams FWIW). Plus it probably won't be cheap because MSM guys poo flowers and rainbows so they charge out the wazoo for used parts because fake racecar.
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Old 01-25-2014, 03:24 PM   #8
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I too would never msm swap. The amount of knowledge you will acquire from bolting on better parts and a better turbo and tuning everything yourself far surpasses the lack of power an msm setup makes.
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:31 PM   #9
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Welcome to the forum.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:55 PM   #10
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Welcome to the forum. What are you doing for an ECU.

Contrary to some of the comments, the MSM turbo with an big intake and exhaust and a good ECU(like MS) can be a very fast car.
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Old 01-25-2014, 10:32 PM   #11
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I made a conscious decision to do the MSM swap, thanks for the concern though

Haven't decided on ECU yet, but Braineack has PM.

The wheels that were on the car were BMW stamped, believed to be off a 2002. But, yeah 13" with some low number offset. Long gone, went to a guy w/ a VW pickup.

Thanks for the welcome... looking forward to getting started on my project.
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olderguy View Post
Welcome to the forum. What are you doing for an ECU.

Contrary to some of the comments, the MSM turbo with an big intake and exhaust and a good ECU(like MS) can be a very fast car.
And a '99-00 engine with an FM no electronics kit with the same MS and exhaust will still outperform it by a large margin.

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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I made a conscious decision to do the MSM swap, thanks for the concern though
OP: not good with turbo, here's what I'm thinking.

Smart ppl: good with turbo. Don't do it.

OP: gonna do it anyway kthxbai

OK so you're set on MSM swap. Why? It's an inferior setup. Is it $500 or something?
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:08 AM   #13
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As mediocre as the MSM's turbo setup is, a full MSM swap has a lot of value in the trans and long-block alone.
It really depends on how much the OP is throwing down for the swap and what condition it is in.
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
As mediocre as the MSM's turbo setup is, a full MSM swap has a lot of value in the trans and long-block alone.
It really depends on how much the OP is throwing down for the swap and what condition it is in.
^^ this.

To me this all hinges on what you pay for the mazdaspeed setup vs what you can get a stock 99-04 setup for.

Mazdaspeed setup vs 99-04 powertrain:

Positives:
- you have the entire unit from the get-go, from engine to turbo to downpipe. You may have to have exhaust fabbed up because I don't believe a mazdaspeed exhaust will bolt up to an NA.
- Supposedly you have a slightly better 6-speed than is found in other years.
- If you are getting the rear end, you are getting some sort of limited slip which you may or may not already have.

Negatives:
- Possibly more expensive than a stock 99-04 powertrain
- Turbo setup sub-par compared to what you can get from BEGI, FM, Absurdflow etc.
- You will likely end up replacing everything turbo related in the future anyhow, so you will likely come out behind money wise in the end.
- VVT (01-04) is a desirable feature if you are running something that will control it.

From what I understand a Mazdaspeed isn't terrible when controlled by a Megasquirt, but you won't be happy in the long run compared to other turbo setups.

If you can be convinced to hold off on your purchase, try and get a ride in a Mazdaspeed and also a turbo'd NB... I think your mind will be made up for you.
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:06 AM   #15
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Welcome, fellow wisconsinite!
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:27 AM   #16
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Oh god, here we go: the part where I'm stuck trying to justify how I spend my money, and why my goal isn't anything north of 200whp.

I want the experience of the motor swap.
I want a 1.8.
I don't want my 114k mile shortnose 1.6, regardless of the condition of the cranknose.
I want a turbo.
The money spent is less than buying a 1.8 plus a FM kit, or heck, even adding a non-Voodoo'ed FM kit to my 1.6!

I do want help picking out engine management, and getting it set up!

Everything is inferior to something else. I just set the bar lower than where you'd have set it.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:21 PM   #17
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If you're happy, I'm happy. But comparing used MSM parts to new FM parts does not equivocate. Used FM parts are far cheaper than new. I'm not trying to convince you of either, but rather exploring the measuring devices for accuracy.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Oh god, here we go: the part where I'm stuck trying to justify how I spend my money, and why my goal isn't anything north of 200whp.

I want the experience of the motor swap.
I want a 1.8.
I don't want my 114k mile shortnose 1.6, regardless of the condition of the cranknose.
I want a turbo.
The money spent is less than buying a 1.8 plus a FM kit, or heck, even adding a non-Voodoo'ed FM kit to my 1.6!

I do want help picking out engine management, and getting it set up!

Everything is inferior to something else. I just set the bar lower than where you'd have set it.

Carry on with your bad self. As long as the 1.6 goes away, nobody should fault you.

PS: there's a few fun hybrid turbos you can make using the IHI that the MSM comes with, so it's not like you'll be stuck making shitty power if you feel the urge for more.

<---- makes ~250whp on an MSM with FM's "Little Enchilada" and an old Blouch hybrid turbo.
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Oh god, here we go: the part where I'm stuck trying to justify how I spend my money, and why my goal isn't anything north of 200whp.
Fair enough. People here are only trying to help. It all depends on how much you spend on the whole setup. The "completed" price (minus ECU, exhaust) is what needs to be focused on either way. The completed price for the MazdaSpeed swap may just be that much cheaper... I don't know.

Good luck.
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:21 PM   #20
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welcome jt!

A lot of these guys see "potential" in you. I'd take that as a good thing. They like you and see you as a brother from another mother. We see a lot of people come on being mad tyte yo! So they saw someone who likes racing and seems to know a little bit and have a good passion like the rest. They are trying to lead you to the knowledge heaven of turbo'ed miatas.

I won't claim to be a master of all things miata but will tell you that I started with a 1.6 and a begi kit as a 25 year old. I wanted turbo so I just bought the kit right? Well now that i've broken and built a million things I know now what I didn't then right?

If I had a really awesome miata friend back then to show me the ropes I could have saved a grip and had a much better learning curve & setup. I also wouldn't have cooked my first engine on bandaids!

These people are trying to be your miata friend and show you some ropes. By all means make the decision you feel most comfortable with and if that's to go with an msm switch go for it. If you buy a 1.8 and build your own turbo kit and are cool with being around 200hp; you could have a killer setup for a very reasonable price.

1.8 Long Block in good condition ~400
TD04 or something like it ~100
Hot Parts from artech ~600-700
Misc Parts/Hoses and clamps etc... ~200

For $2000-$2500 you could have a full proper turbo system w/ 1.8 i think...

You'll probably put a new clutch in too and maybe deal with the 6" rear end till/if it fails?

Anyway don't take the advice here wrong. As mentioned it's genuine advice from people that have gone through the process in which you are. I have a 90 that has a 1.9L w/ forged etc... I'm only currently running at about 155whp (haven't installed my ID 1000's yet). I'm on a 2560r w/ used begi parts, cops, etc... A co-worker of mine has a MSM and he loves his msm. He loved it a lot more before I let him drive mine though and I'm at about the same power level.

Edit: Other than my turbo i already had. Buying and building my 1.8 was under $5k including my clutch & 6 speed. I think it was closer to $4k but I didn't really want to count. When it comes to projects like this I think we'd all prefer not to. I'm including my hot side parts.

Last edited by krissetsfire; 01-27-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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