99 + DIYPNP 1.5 build comments/questions
 

This will not be a walk-in-the park build thread, more comments and newbie questions (I'm finally high on solder fumes).
This is a Euro 1999 with Imobilizer. That means that the Fuel Pump Relay is activated by grounding 3P (Red/White) instead of 3N (ltGreen) as on the US model (i.e. connect "Fuel Pump" on the main board to 4P instead of 4N on the connector board)

Setup and 1st plan:

• AFM in place
• Stock ignition
• Sequential
• PWM Board for IAC [Remember to put IAC Inverted = Yes]
• Stock front O2 sensor in place (the rear one is deleted in the stock ECU and I like to be able to switch ECUs until I'm really familiar with MS and can pass the sniff test).
• LC1 installed with gauge working [Separate grounds all the way to the common ground point at the intake manifold ground point]
• Tune the thing and see if I can get 3rd gear sweeps to be better than stock (GPS logged), no dyno planned at all.
• then start to think about flat shift, launch control etc

Build Comment, DIYAT have left out the Q13-Q15 in point 6 on main assembly.
A really newbie comment, the connector numbering 1,2,3,4 relates to Mazda 1,_,2,3 (so 4WXYZ on the connectorboard relates to 3WXYZ in the harness, the 4 injectors).

While I'm waiting for the parts to the JC alternator control I might just as well shoot off some questions:

• I plan to connect the LC1 trough the DB15, is it ok to just connect the yellow wire (reconfigured to 0-5V) and leave the ground on the ECU connector only (3C (4C on the connectorboard)) or should I add one through the DB15 (to signal ground instead)?
  (The O2 on the mainboard should of course be connected to the same pin on the DB15)
• I also plan to keep the front NarrowBand O2 mounted, should it be heated or can it survive without it (and if heated, continuously or should I use one relay output to control ground to 1U)?
• I loaded the 3.0.3u firmware, but the startup maps was for 3.0.3h. I don't remember all the comments from TunerStudio but there was something about settings not valid and settings missing. Any idea about what to go through before startup or are the invalid/missing things just related to unneeded things in the beginning?

Here are the Warnings:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...&d=1276804925g

But for the small number of afternoons I have invested the experience is good so far, the Firmware loaded at the first attempt (when I manage to convince Vista to place the USB-Serial at a port below 10), the Tunerstudio was able to burn small alterations (just tried a little with the RevLimiter).
The real test will be when I get the alternator control made so I can attempt to start the thing.

1. Connect the o2 port to the Db15 pin that you plan to bring the LC-1 in.
2. dunno.
3. should be fine.

1. Sure, things work much better when something is receiving the signal on the other end of the DB15 (not easy to cover all things in a text).
3. Good to know.

I seem to remember that heated O2 sensors was introduced to improve the tune at startup (startup emissions), but in the LC-1 instructions the warmup seems to be very important (both the procedure and not to let the heating go on too long before starting).
Mixed messages or just Innovate being over cautious (or a sensitive Bosch sensor)?

the lc-1 calibrates the warm up time it needs. your map should be tuned well enough once you're done with it that you don't even need an o2 signal, i never let it correct under warm-up mode ( <150*F ).

Finally got hold of the parts for the JC Alternator Control.
Mocking it up on a Bread Board (test board) helped a lot. With the components I have the "Field Out" follows Vin (12V) until it gets to 14.16V, then it cuts to zero (or down a lot at 14.17V, at 14.2V its zero).
So I played around a bit on the Bread Board to try to make it as compact as I liked (could not figure out how the DIY-layout was made). One thing to remember, add all connections/components before you start to give up :)
The final layout did give the same result and so it did when soldered to the Proto Area.
http://homepage.mac.com/niklasfalk/i...or_Control.png
The fat multilines are ugly pin and solder connections on the backside of the board, making the second vertical row all GND etc.
GND and 12V are attached to the backside ugliness.

Talking about connections, I hope I'm guessing correct that 1T is the Field (goes to a transistor in the alternator that drives a coil) (1O is some other sensing stuff I guess? Looks like alternating signal from one of the phases in the alternator).

DIYPNP and 99 stock knock sensor? What to "Knock+" and what to "Knock-"?
There is just 2F/3F (knock signal in a shielded wire) and ground I can think of.
Or should I just wait with options like that (And don't play around that much with timing in the beginning)?
OK, Just skip the Knock sensor then (until I decide what to do. JC design seems to be an option, yet again, but with what results).

It won't work with the 99 OEM knock sensor - the 99 sensor gives a stupid signal no othr ECU except the OEM understands...

Greets

Thanks, so just tune good enough without knock then (be though with the timing instead of leaning against a knock sensor, continously using the same fuel helps).
One more thing to just disregard before getting into tuning (I really hope to be crank ready this weekend, if it starts is mostly up to my ability to follow instructions :)).

FWIW, the 2001+ sensor works fine with the MS-1 circuit (as suggested on the MSnSE manual) and with the KnockSenseMS. I don't see why it wouldn't work with the DIYPNP circuit.

Dimitris

The DIYPNP knock circuit is the exact same circuit in the MS1/Extra manual.

is it 1O or 1T. The docs for the 99-00 DIYPNP suggests 1O but I've had an issue with 3 different alt circuits I've built.

I will try with 1T first and see what happens, connecting Field Out to 1O (if that is the AC from one phase in the alternator) sounds strange.
But this would not be the first fact regarding anything MS that is scattered and conflicting (especially over time).

Interesting things regarding Knock you can find when you search :), I'll probably revisit it at a later stage (and figure out what amp/filter thingy is the best or just stay away form bad gas).

I've never tried 1T, but I've built two on 1O. Both units work fine. Don't waste your time trying 1T.

Good to know (but hard to understand based on the scheme).
But why overthink things that work...

Sorry about that oversight; I've now fixed it.

Finally got to the cranking phase tonight, but only a slight stumble, nothing else.

I first programmed the yellow output from the LC-1 to be "0-5V 10-20AFR" and then double checked everything else. Cranking for the first time did nothing (expect humming from the idle valve).
Looking at the O2 signal 10.00 seamed a bit strange while cranking, that did not correspond to the 15-16 on the Gauge (brown output wire on the LC-1).
Starting the LM Programmer showed the Analogue 1 (yellow) to be set to factory default, what :(
reprogram the LC-1 to "0-5V 10-20AFR" yet again, did a power-cycle and checked again, now it seemed to stick.
Back online with Tuner Studio again and still 10.00 as signal, checked with LM programmer and it was yet again back to factory default...

Fighting with this for an hour or so and switching back and forth between MS and stock ECU resulted in a LC-1 that now works as a narrowband regardless of programming. Even with stock ECU and only gauge attached it shoots from AFR22 to AFR7 at a blip of the throttle from idle.
So tomorrow I'll have to restart with checking the sensor, reset everything, re-solder everything for the LC-1 and check if I've have some ground gremlins (verify that I can get the same behavior with the stock ECU as I had before (and check the yellow output with a volt meter before even approaching it with the MS).

MS can never work better than it's sensors...

Edit: It seems the LC-1 is loosing it's free-air calibration as soon as the MS stumble a couple of ignitions (ignitro wires quite close to the O2 in the MS, now moved a little).
And now it seems to be a couple of AFR-units off. Free air calibration to 22 but says the stock idle at 18.5-20 (was 15.5-17 before)...
Better read-up on cleaning the sensor for free-air calibration, it might not see absolutely "free" air during calibration.

Where exactly is the LC-1 grounded?

Not only the grounds but also the power might be the problem.

Power comes from the Main FIA switch (directly from the ignition key), the LC-1 complain about low power when cranking, need to find a connection that is only active during run (the Cigarette lighter is close by and I seem to remember that it's off during crank/start).

The Heater ground for the LC-1 is taken from the harness 3A (DIYPNP 4A), the signal ground is taken from 3F/4F (the same as the ground for IAT, TPS etc).

Should I run a separate ground wire for the heater to the ground point Nr_5 (instead of sharing the one for the injectors etc)?
This setup works fine with the OEM ECU but MS is probably cruder.

But I really hope that an invalid signal from the O2 is not the reason for it to fail to catch more than intermittent curing cranking (and at one time hearing a significant "sigh" from the intake indicating small backfire).

I'll retry this evening with fresh firmware and new fresh msq (DIYAT sequential with only IDLE PWM change), setting the LC-1 to simulate a narrowband (having it disconnected while cranking).
It can also be a good time to verify all the wires on the connector board... (sigh)

Give the LC-1 its own, separate grounds, straight to the block or cylinder head. We do not attempt to ground them through the factory harness on our own Miata installations.

Rechecked all the wires on the connectorboard, especially the opto-, Ing1, Ign2, Fuel Pump etc, and they all look ok. Nothing looks odd with the soldering either.
I tried cold and not even a single stumble.

I attached the msq and a log during cranking, but that doesn't say much I guess since it doesn't seem to include anything valuable (to my eyes). Maybe someone can give me a hint on what gauges to set up for the logger in TS?

I found the trigger wizard in TS, am I supposed to verify the ignition so I'm not 60, 90, 120, degrees off for some reason?

Moving all the grounds for the LC-1+Gauge to a separate wire to the Ground Point 5 (intake manifolds grounding bracket) to reduce noise did little to change things. But warming it up with the stock ECU (so not completely cold) made it stumble and catch sometimes (but not enough to "leave" the starter).

I know somethings work:
it smells of gas
Cooling fan can be turned on/off by setting the initial values.
VICS clicks when altering the value

But no strobe light available to check timing or spark.

Coils and Injectors seems to be undamaged though since it works fin with the stock ECU.
I hope someone have some clue what to try tomorrow (need some sleep and work until then).

Just checked the harness too and all the relevant wires are there (colors for the Ign, Inj, Cam, Crank match), but no clutch switch and no rear O2 (no EGR Boost and no FTP makes sense since these use the rear O2), and two extra red/white in positions 1J and 3P (which are not in my US diagram). This an Euro 1999 btw.

Can you take a good 10 second composite log for me, and then post it up with a datalog and your current msq. Need to see 8 to 10 seconds of cranking. Thanks.

Oh, did you install the sequential injection module?

Yes, 3 and 4 from the sequential module goes to 4Z (Injector 4) and 4X (injector 2) .

I've left the garage now but I'll be back tomorrow to make a long cranking log (just log to file as these previous smaller ones I guess).

I have no better clue than to keep the msq as the one I posted, no idea what to alter. But a longer log will be made.
From cold or luke warm (idle a couple of minutes on the stock ECU)?

Any clue what the two red/white on 1J and 3P might be (knowledge beats tracing them in the harness)?

output #3 should go to 4Z and output #4 should go to 4X

And they do. Outputs 1,2,3,4 goes to 4W,4Y,4Z,4X which goes to injectors 1,3,4,2 as in the firing order.

Log of 10+ seconds of cranking ice cold (I hope this is what you meant?).
And the msq (which should be the same as before).

I have no clue what to try?
I'm not sure the Fuel pump is running, could it be that easy (but why does it then try to catch when warmer and why does it smell of fuel)?

I got some information from a local Mazda technician.
The 1J and 3P are connections to the Immobilizer. 1J seems to be the Immo input to the ECU and 3P goes to the Fuel Pump relay (3N is used when there is no Immo) so this must be the resulting output (no fuel pump activation if the Immo result doesn't look ok).

So could it be as easy as to move the "Fuel Pump" from 4N to 4P on the connector board? I'll sure try when I get to the garage after work :)

And the neutral switch i combined with the clutch switch on 1V (3I is unused)

Yepp, this should be it.

I did the same here too.

Composite log looks good.

Yes, the pin out on Euro Miatas with immobilizer seems to be different by only 1 pin--and that's the output that grounds the fuel pump relay.

Good to finally know! :)
I'll update the first post when it fires with as much info as I can (hopefully readable for the next one in line).
Maybe a small note in the DIYPNP 1.5 build instructions could be useful (but a small note for a few can make it confusing for the masses).

Hmm, how fast can I get away from work...

The clutch switch and neutral switch are also different.

That is how this looks on a Euro 99. I don't have the 99-00 US wiring digram, but I know the 94-95 are different in any case.

http://www.ingenieure-reichel.de/upload/MS/Clutch.jpg


We had this already here:

https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...=clutch+switch

Maybe Joe can post this US spec pic again.

This is why I don't have my launch control activated. I think I have to change some things due to the different wiring here.

Just disconnecting the neutral switch from the transmission would make it very similar to the US diagram (separate switches going to ground attached at 1V and 3I). I'm not sure what the stock ECU does with the signal (if you want to switch back/forth).

Shouldn't be hard to figure out, and the way it's wired, launch would be armed either in neutral or with the clutch kicked in. Basically it would just add a neutral rev limiter as well as launch control--no downside there I guess. If you don't want the neutral rev limiter, just snip the wire before or after the neutral switch.

Does 1V go high or low when the clutch or neutral switch is closed?

1V goes low when either Neutral or clutch is depressed (just tested, not only according to diagram).
A newbie analysis of this means that a lower rev limit when 1V goes low would work as launch control (or flat shift in general I guess).

And of bigger importance, It STARTS and RUNS!!! :bowdown:
But the Idle is at 3500 rpm :D
Is that a fully open IAC maybe?

yes. need to find the workable range of the idle valve.

I could send you a base map if you like...

OK, if 1V goes low then there's no reason why the launch feature would not work without any additional mods. It would arm in neutral and/or when you hit the clutch.

Congrats on your first start. If you want to rule in/out the idle valve, unplug it and see what happens. The valve should close when unplugged, dropping idle. You may need to add throttle to make the car run.

That would be wonderful.
I copied your PWM build so the idle settings would be very similar.

Disconnecting IAC and it works as you could expect.
Things start to make sense now (eh, some parts that is :D).

I was even able to alter the LC-1 to 0-5V 10-20AFR, change the project properties and AFR table to get VE Analyze Live to do some Auto Tuning (while just reving slightly standing still).

Just screendumps of Idle settings working somewhat with the PWM board (set at 16 (or is it 128) as multiplier) would help a lot.

Just tried one thing, inverted the valve (100%=off)....
Presto, perfect idle... :)

I don't know if I flipped anything in the PWM board installation but I cant complain about stable 1030rpm idle standing still (for now).

The PWM board does require Inverted=Yes.

Dimitris

Went out for a Tuning run and it just WORKS :D
Light acceleration is already much smoother than Mazdas ECU :)

The only thing is that the USB-Serial disconnects very often when running on battery, but thats not MS or Tunerstudios fault.

Oh, well, next time to tune is Monday evening (away until then), but this was really good news.

Thanks for the title change.

Just got TunerStudio and a USB-Serial to work under Ubuntu, so I'll see if that setup works better while tuning (not going Off-Line from time to time as the Virtualbox XP, yes I know it's asking for trouble).

Absolutly nothing has gone wrong today, so I have to be very careful tomorrow :)

If you had filled out the location in your profile, we would have told you a week earlier :loser:.
We've all made that mistake :).

Thanks for the punt :)
I'm happy for every help I get and don't care if the problems are old (and solutions "hidden").

Good thing that switching ECUs is quite fast (but I got a blister on my thoumb :)) since it's in the passenger foot well, this experience would be possible even on a DD.

Once the first tuning run have been made, the manuals make much more sense. The second DIYPNP will be much easier to make :)

Congrats Niklas! Nice to hear you're up and running! I'll bet you've got the first Miata runing with DIYPNP in Sweden. I think you're experience is worth a lot and I know of at least one guy over at the Miata Club of Sweden who are struggling with his DIYPNP install (or did you buy his kit?).

Andreas

Why buy a struggling kit when you can get the complete experience by starting fresh (with the latest additions/options) :)
The learning experience is a big part of it for me.

More updates (it progress steadily but slowly):
1O is the place to regulate the Alternator (at least in my harness).
1V for Launch Control/Flat Shift works (electronically, but I require training to not lift while shifting)
Running AutoTune with a O2 that gets heat soaked is not the smartest idea (tuning against a fixed AFR of 11.0 from the LC-1 is plan dumb).

It needs a new fresh AutoTuning run tonight (it was raining last night) before I pack things up for a weekend of racing. I'll have the OEM ECU with me just in case the quick tune is too slow (feels a bit scary to trust my own soldering to give me performance and reliability...).

Awesome. Good job Nik. :)

After a decent tuning run (trying to hit all cells 5-7k at the freeway result in strange looks :)) it now starts to be really peppy and smooth.

Trying a couple of standing starts with Lauch/flatshift actually works now (when I don't miss the shifts). 2-3 gives a actual push forward that I don't feel with a classic shift.

The main problems I have had as a newbie is the hassle with the LC-1. Granted, I started without a copper heat-sink (now dual 0.7mm sheets) but the reprogramming and calibration is a mess.
After I overheated it yesterday it thought that the ratio between Lambda and AFR was off by a factor of 100 (. This was fixed by switching fuel back and forth (from gasoline to something else and then back).
And before I realized that using a switched power was a good idea (only active in run, not start) I got a bunch of recalibrations due to low power during crank.

During all of this the DIYPNP have done what it's supposed to do (when I moved Fuel Pump) and the same is true for TunerStudioMS :winner:

And the Alternator is pumping out 14.6V steadily and turning on the lights makes the idle drop a little and then pick up again :)

Ah, life is good :giggle:


Question for the future (i.e after the weekend):
Is there an advantage to rescale all tables to max out at 100Kpa since I run NA and will never add boost?
To me is sounds like it would give me a higher resolution (I only "use" 9 of the 16 rows in the fuel table currently)

Sure, you could rescale if you'd like. I don't think it would actually have an impact on how the car runs, but it won't hurt anything either. It will be a little bit more to tune. Maybe if you find time, there's another fella in Sweden who needs some help with his DIYPNP. I think you probably know who it is. ;)

But thats on a 95... The only thing I could manage at this point is to make a copy for a Euro 98-00 :)

But with enough time and correct wiring diagrams it should not be that hard (it's pretty few wires actually), when you have proper grounds, and all the sensors are working, and you connect the fuel pump to the correct pin :)

It's a bit different, but the concept is the same. The 95 is actually easier.

First raceweekend and everything worked :)

Seemed to get higher rpms at the end of the long straight so there might be some more power than with the OEM ECU with just 30minutes of highway tuning.
Launch control and flatshift was fun :) 1->2 and 3->4 at least (2->3 needs more care).

Scaling tables, Knock Sensor (figuring out if the DIYPNP works ok with the stock 99-00 sensor) and timing to suit 99 RON is up next (when I feel I have time)

Tables scaled but I have some questions
 

Attached is the scaled tables after a 1 hour Autotune run (30/30 normal).

I have no idea what the fat spot at 1500rpm 80% is supposed to mean?

And is there something bad when the axes are not the same in the three tables?
That AFR target is the same over 6krpm to save resolution down low I kind of understand, but should it be constant below 30%?

If I only run 99 RON, what parts of the ignition table can be advanced for more power?
This should of course only be done when I've verified the base timing (no, I have not done that yet :loser:)

Your AFR table looks quite rich to me for an N/A table.

To me too when I start to read a bit in the generic manuals ("12.5 at max torque and 13.0 at max power" as a guide).

I'll see what I can do and if it feels better (Need to start GPS-logging to measure progress now that the principles is working).

You need to to autotune more. Set to "Easy" if need be. Some cells (100kPa at 1400rpm) are hard to reach, so insist until you are ok.

Is this a more reasonable AFR target table (just guesswork)?

No idea to autotune a lot with "wrong" targets :)

I don't care that much about idle quality in traffic as I do about max power and fast response at the track. But autotuning for that is a bit tricky in vacation traffic...

Either this one or the previous one would work just fine.