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Old 06-14-2010, 03:56 PM   #1
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Default 99 + DIYPNP 1.5 build comments/questions

This will not be a walk-in-the park build thread, more comments and newbie questions (I'm finally high on solder fumes).
This is a Euro 1999 with Imobilizer. That means that the Fuel Pump Relay is activated by grounding 3P (Red/White) instead of 3N (ltGreen) as on the US model (i.e. connect "Fuel Pump" on the main board to 4P instead of 4N on the connector board)

Setup and 1st plan:
  • AFM in place
  • Stock ignition
  • Sequential
  • PWM Board for IAC [Remember to put IAC Inverted = Yes]
  • Stock front O2 sensor in place (the rear one is deleted in the stock ECU and I like to be able to switch ECUs until I'm really familiar with MS and can pass the sniff test).
  • LC1 installed with gauge working [Separate grounds all the way to the common ground point at the intake manifold ground point]
  • Tune the thing and see if I can get 3rd gear sweeps to be better than stock (GPS logged), no dyno planned at all.
  • then start to think about flat shift, launch control etc

Build Comment, DIYAT have left out the Q13-Q15 in point 6 on main assembly.
A really newbie comment, the connector numbering 1,2,3,4 relates to Mazda 1,_,2,3 (so 4WXYZ on the connectorboard relates to 3WXYZ in the harness, the 4 injectors).

While I'm waiting for the parts to the JC alternator control I might just as well shoot off some questions:
  • I plan to connect the LC1 trough the DB15, is it ok to just connect the yellow wire (reconfigured to 0-5V) and leave the ground on the ECU connector only (3C (4C on the connectorboard)) or should I add one through the DB15 (to signal ground instead)?
    (The O2 on the mainboard should of course be connected to the same pin on the DB15)
  • I also plan to keep the front NarrowBand O2 mounted, should it be heated or can it survive without it (and if heated, continuously or should I use one relay output to control ground to 1U)?
  • I loaded the 3.0.3u firmware, but the startup maps was for 3.0.3h. I don't remember all the comments from TunerStudio but there was something about settings not valid and settings missing. Any idea about what to go through before startup or are the invalid/missing things just related to unneeded things in the beginning?
Here are the Warnings:


But for the small number of afternoons I have invested the experience is good so far, the Firmware loaded at the first attempt (when I manage to convince Vista to place the USB-Serial at a port below 10), the Tunerstudio was able to burn small alterations (just tried a little with the RevLimiter).
The real test will be when I get the alternator control made so I can attempt to start the thing.
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99 + DIYPNP 1.5 build comments/questions-ms_diypnp_warnings.png  

Last edited by NiklasFalk; 06-23-2010 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:06 PM   #2
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1. Connect the o2 port to the Db15 pin that you plan to bring the LC-1 in.
2. dunno.
3. should be fine.
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
1. Connect the o2 port to the Db15 pin that you plan to bring the LC-1 in.
2. dunno.
3. should be fine.
1. Sure, things work much better when something is receiving the signal on the other end of the DB15 (not easy to cover all things in a text).
3. Good to know.

I seem to remember that heated O2 sensors was introduced to improve the tune at startup (startup emissions), but in the LC-1 instructions the warmup seems to be very important (both the procedure and not to let the heating go on too long before starting).
Mixed messages or just Innovate being over cautious (or a sensitive Bosch sensor)?
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:29 PM   #4
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the lc-1 calibrates the warm up time it needs. your map should be tuned well enough once you're done with it that you don't even need an o2 signal, i never let it correct under warm-up mode ( <150*F ).
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:25 PM   #5
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Finally got hold of the parts for the JC Alternator Control.
Mocking it up on a Bread Board (test board) helped a lot. With the components I have the "Field Out" follows Vin (12V) until it gets to 14.16V, then it cuts to zero (or down a lot at 14.17V, at 14.2V its zero).
So I played around a bit on the Bread Board to try to make it as compact as I liked (could not figure out how the DIY-layout was made). One thing to remember, add all connections/components before you start to give up
The final layout did give the same result and so it did when soldered to the Proto Area.

The fat multilines are ugly pin and solder connections on the backside of the board, making the second vertical row all GND etc.
GND and 12V are attached to the backside ugliness.

Talking about connections, I hope I'm guessing correct that 1T is the Field (goes to a transistor in the alternator that drives a coil) (1O is some other sensing stuff I guess? Looks like alternating signal from one of the phases in the alternator).

DIYPNP and 99 stock knock sensor? What to "Knock+" and what to "Knock-"?
There is just 2F/3F (knock signal in a shielded wire) and ground I can think of.
Or should I just wait with options like that (And don't play around that much with timing in the beginning)?
OK, Just skip the Knock sensor then (until I decide what to do. JC design seems to be an option, yet again, but with what results).

Last edited by NiklasFalk; 06-17-2010 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:20 AM   #6
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It won't work with the 99 OEM knock sensor - the 99 sensor gives a stupid signal no othr ECU except the OEM understands...

Greets
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
It won't work with the 99 OEM knock sensor - the 99 sensor gives a stupid signal no othr ECU except the OEM understands...

Greets
Thanks, so just tune good enough without knock then (be though with the timing instead of leaning against a knock sensor, continously using the same fuel helps).
One more thing to just disregard before getting into tuning (I really hope to be crank ready this weekend, if it starts is mostly up to my ability to follow instructions ).
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
It won't work with the 99 OEM knock sensor - the 99 sensor gives a stupid signal no othr ECU except the OEM understands...

Greets
FWIW, the 2001+ sensor works fine with the MS-1 circuit (as suggested on the MSnSE manual) and with the KnockSenseMS. I don't see why it wouldn't work with the DIYPNP circuit.

Dimitris
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:34 AM   #9
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The DIYPNP knock circuit is the exact same circuit in the MS1/Extra manual.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:38 AM   #10
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is it 1O or 1T. The docs for the 99-00 DIYPNP suggests 1O but I've had an issue with 3 different alt circuits I've built.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
is it 1O or 1T. The docs for the 99-00 DIYPNP suggests 1O but I've had an issue with 3 different alt circuits I've built.
I will try with 1T first and see what happens, connecting Field Out to 1O (if that is the AC from one phase in the alternator) sounds strange.
But this would not be the first fact regarding anything MS that is scattered and conflicting (especially over time).

Interesting things regarding Knock you can find when you search , I'll probably revisit it at a later stage (and figure out what amp/filter thingy is the best or just stay away form bad gas).
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:56 PM   #12
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I've never tried 1T, but I've built two on 1O. Both units work fine. Don't waste your time trying 1T.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f_devocht View Post
I've never tried 1T, but I've built two on 1O. Both units work fine. Don't waste your time trying 1T.
Good to know (but hard to understand based on the scheme).
But why overthink things that work...
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Build Comment, DIYAT have left out the Q13-Q15 in point 6 on main assembly.
Sorry about that oversight; I've now fixed it.
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:02 PM   #15
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Finally got to the cranking phase tonight, but only a slight stumble, nothing else.

I first programmed the yellow output from the LC-1 to be "0-5V 10-20AFR" and then double checked everything else. Cranking for the first time did nothing (expect humming from the idle valve).
Looking at the O2 signal 10.00 seamed a bit strange while cranking, that did not correspond to the 15-16 on the Gauge (brown output wire on the LC-1).
Starting the LM Programmer showed the Analogue 1 (yellow) to be set to factory default, what :(
reprogram the LC-1 to "0-5V 10-20AFR" yet again, did a power-cycle and checked again, now it seemed to stick.
Back online with Tuner Studio again and still 10.00 as signal, checked with LM programmer and it was yet again back to factory default...

Fighting with this for an hour or so and switching back and forth between MS and stock ECU resulted in a LC-1 that now works as a narrowband regardless of programming. Even with stock ECU and only gauge attached it shoots from AFR22 to AFR7 at a blip of the throttle from idle.
So tomorrow I'll have to restart with checking the sensor, reset everything, re-solder everything for the LC-1 and check if I've have some ground gremlins (verify that I can get the same behavior with the stock ECU as I had before (and check the yellow output with a volt meter before even approaching it with the MS).

MS can never work better than it's sensors...

Edit: It seems the LC-1 is loosing it's free-air calibration as soon as the MS stumble a couple of ignitions (ignitro wires quite close to the O2 in the MS, now moved a little).
And now it seems to be a couple of AFR-units off. Free air calibration to 22 but says the stock idle at 18.5-20 (was 15.5-17 before)...
Better read-up on cleaning the sensor for free-air calibration, it might not see absolutely "free" air during calibration.

Last edited by NiklasFalk; 06-19-2010 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:35 AM   #16
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Where exactly is the LC-1 grounded?
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
Where exactly is the LC-1 grounded?
Not only the grounds but also the power might be the problem.

Power comes from the Main FIA switch (directly from the ignition key), the LC-1 complain about low power when cranking, need to find a connection that is only active during run (the Cigarette lighter is close by and I seem to remember that it's off during crank/start).

The Heater ground for the LC-1 is taken from the harness 3A (DIYPNP 4A), the signal ground is taken from 3F/4F (the same as the ground for IAT, TPS etc).

Should I run a separate ground wire for the heater to the ground point Nr_5 (instead of sharing the one for the injectors etc)?
This setup works fine with the OEM ECU but MS is probably cruder.

But I really hope that an invalid signal from the O2 is not the reason for it to fail to catch more than intermittent curing cranking (and at one time hearing a significant "sigh" from the intake indicating small backfire).

I'll retry this evening with fresh firmware and new fresh msq (DIYAT sequential with only IDLE PWM change), setting the LC-1 to simulate a narrowband (having it disconnected while cranking).
It can also be a good time to verify all the wires on the connector board... (sigh)
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:24 PM   #18
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Give the LC-1 its own, separate grounds, straight to the block or cylinder head. We do not attempt to ground them through the factory harness on our own Miata installations.
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:28 PM   #19
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Rechecked all the wires on the connectorboard, especially the opto-, Ing1, Ign2, Fuel Pump etc, and they all look ok. Nothing looks odd with the soldering either.
I tried cold and not even a single stumble.

I attached the msq and a log during cranking, but that doesn't say much I guess since it doesn't seem to include anything valuable (to my eyes). Maybe someone can give me a hint on what gauges to set up for the logger in TS?

I found the trigger wizard in TS, am I supposed to verify the ignition so I'm not 60, 90, 120, degrees off for some reason?
Attached Files
File Type: msq Not Catching 2010-06-21_20.02.24.msq (74.4 KB, 68 views)
File Type: csv 2010-06-21_20.01.36.csv (22.1 KB, 57 views)
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:21 PM   #20
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Moving all the grounds for the LC-1+Gauge to a separate wire to the Ground Point 5 (intake manifolds grounding bracket) to reduce noise did little to change things. But warming it up with the stock ECU (so not completely cold) made it stumble and catch sometimes (but not enough to "leave" the starter).

I know somethings work:
it smells of gas
Cooling fan can be turned on/off by setting the initial values.
VICS clicks when altering the value

But no strobe light available to check timing or spark.

Coils and Injectors seems to be undamaged though since it works fin with the stock ECU.
I hope someone have some clue what to try tomorrow (need some sleep and work until then).

Just checked the harness too and all the relevant wires are there (colors for the Ign, Inj, Cam, Crank match), but no clutch switch and no rear O2 (no EGR Boost and no FTP makes sense since these use the rear O2), and two extra red/white in positions 1J and 3P (which are not in my US diagram). This an Euro 1999 btw.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 2010-06-21_21.09.47.csv (11.2 KB, 63 views)

Last edited by NiklasFalk; 06-21-2010 at 05:12 PM.
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