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Abe's NB-MSII Adapterboard/PnP
Wow, well, there's lots of interest in this apparently, so I'm starting a new thread, linking over from:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t25789/#post421407 Good lord! Talk about lots of interest. Well, it's supposed to be a teaser, since I haven't actual run it yet, but with the exception of the included (good spot on the cap! Unfortunately it semi-blocks some of the jumper labels. I might mount it on the back of the board next time) alternator control (Thanks Jason!) it's all stuff I've build multiple times before and I know works. To answer some questions: 1) As a backup, there's a line out to use the Mopar alternator control box as I've done on my car. Seems the success rate with that is about the same as with Jason's - 50% over all, 100% when done by the person who first came up with it. :-) 2) WBO2, Knocksense MS are both handled by the board, both in terms of providing switched power and raw signals out, as well as receiving signals back in. All this is done on the terminal blocks. (For additional reliability, solder wires to this instead, but it's less flexible) 3) I'm pretty sure they will need heat sinks. I haven't decided if I should get the little extruded ones and put them on separate, or a bar and insulators. 4) The row of jumpers in the middle will allow the tinkerer to break any signal, inspect or modify it. Also useful for rerouting for different years. I have one pin used as VVT out or a spare, and a clutch switch in. For a slightly more reliable solution, just soldering wire across is the way to go. 5) The board is designed to use a stock MS-II. Only a few wires would need to be changed, basically stuff to bring out the right spare pins, and bypass the majority of the MS's (very poor) inputs. The idea was you'd buy an assembled MS, run ~4-10 wires, but no resistors, diodes, or anything else, and plug it into this board and be good to go. Other background questions I've seen: Yes, it's for full standalone. You can use the spare line to control the purge solenoid if you want - for emissions, or as an idle adjust as some have done/suggested for AC compensation. The biggest issue most NB people are finding is the input circuits, this incorporates almost exactly the OEM inputs. If you really want to rev very very high, you might leave the caps out. If I get enough interest, I'll probably buy a stack of the OEM connectors, when doing my boomslang, those f'ing connectors and their shipping was like 20% of the whole MS project. Lastly: TeamPlur can help me out as he has a fairly stock 2000 miata, but I would be very interested in finding a like minded SoCal person who would like to let me plug this into a car with a stock wiring harness and see how it all works. I figure I'm a few days to a week away from having the MS ready... Once I get a parts list together (instead of built out of scavenged parts like this one was) I'll be able to find some pricing for both "kits" and assembled units. Likely I'll be able to have people send me a pre-built MS, mod it and send back a 'turn key' where all they have to do stick the boost control soleniod wires in and call it good. Just some pics: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/534604620_CDtYq-L-1.jpg http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/534604624_wUfKT-L-1.jpg Want to check how close the render is to the real deal? http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/566633756_7zbKp-XL.jpg Debagged http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/566634035_Vn88B-XL.jpg The circuit that started it all http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/567881618_QJMnU-XL.jpg Mostly populated http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/567881109_kvR3p-XL.jpg Fully populated http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/567881212_BVMMe-XL.jpg Top Down http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/567880888_fjb5q-XL.jpg Back side It's still untested, but it feels good to see it all come together. Thanks Jean, Harv, and the rest of you (At DIYEFI.org) for the pointers along the way. http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/567880987_HsMW4-XL.jpg |
Abe,
Looks good. Currently building the MSII for my 99 supercharged trying to figure out which way to go for my Ignition. Have the EDIS, have the CAS 94-97 and ECU connectors for standalone still deciding which way to go. So the purpose built PC board is looking really nice, really nice. Very interested in a board like that. Thanks |
looks good! Keep us updated, Im ready to put down money for it.
EDIT: Will the spark mods be incorporated into the board, or do they still need to be done on the MS? (Using the new inverted spark outputs by Joe?) |
Thanks everyone - yes, the idea is to have it ready to go - the first run was only ten boards, I'll admit I didn't honestly think there'd be any danger of running out! :-) But making more is straight forward now that the design is all set up, so baring any issues in early testing, I could probably get "ready to assemble" kits out the door pretty soon.
Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that. My goal was that you wouldn't have to add anything but wires inside the MS - no diodes to keep track of the orientation, no resistors to sort through or anything like that. You wouldn't need to do the idle mod, either, since I've got a better driver "outside the box". As far as ignition, it's set up to run the stock coils, and my personal recommendation is just to run the toyota Coil On Plug set up everyone does. You can get a set <$100, and you'll never have to buy spark plug cables again. Plus anyone running boost can still have a huge spark gap, so it's a good thing all around. My board just passes the logic level signals out. It should be plug and play as much as possible, it's got the joe-inspired AC working... Anyway, I'll just have to get to testing this next week and will be able to say a lot more then. :-) If I can find some big NPN's to replace the ones on there, with the rear emitter-common so I don't need to isolate them it'd look better, but not really change anything. Alright, past my bed time. :-) -Abe. -Abe. |
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 422130)
Thanks everyone - yes, the idea is to have it ready to go - the first run was only ten boards, I'll admit I didn't honestly think there'd be any danger of running out! :-) But making more is straight forward now that the design is all set up, so baring any issues in early testing, I could probably get "ready to assemble" kits out the door pretty soon.
Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that. My goal was that you wouldn't have to add anything but wires inside the MS - no diodes to keep track of the orientation, no resistors to sort through or anything like that. You wouldn't need to do the idle mod, either, since I've got a better driver "outside the box". As far as ignition, it's set up to run the stock coils, and my personal recommendation is just to run the toyota Coil On Plug set up everyone does. You can get a set <$100, and you'll never have to buy spark plug cables again. Plus anyone running boost can still have a huge spark gap, so it's a good thing all around. My board just passes the logic level signals out. It should be plug and play as much as possible, it's got the joe-inspired AC working... Anyway, I'll just have to get to testing this next week and will be able to say a lot more then. :-) If I can find some big NPN's to replace the ones on there, with the rear emitter-common so I don't need to isolate them it'd look better, but not really change anything. Alright, past my bed time. :-) -Abe. -Abe. I'll be first in line when you get those things tested and ready to roll. :bigtu: |
Originally Posted by Marc D
(Post 422140)
Awesome. Thanks for the update. Joe's new spark outputs require us to put the ignition into "inverted spark" rather than our current non-inverted set up. It cures the "pop" at start up some cars are having problem with.
I'll be first in line when you get those things tested and ready to roll. :bigtu: I should have my MSII ready for an install in the the very near future, keep us updated on the progress and testing. Also have a few of the 64pin male connectors w/ pins if you do not have many available for a couple builds. |
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 422130)
Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that.
The short version is that I added a second inverting stage to the driver so that the output now follows the actual state of the CPU pin, rather than being an active pulldown configuration. This eliminates the spark event at first powerup that causes some folks to get that initial backfire, and also ensures that the outputs are low any time the CPU is offline (such as during a firmware reflash) to prevent the ignition system from burning out if you forget to unplug it. it's got the joe-inspired AC working... |
If only, if only....
Seeing this makes me regret going MS1 back in August. The adapter board looks fantastic, great job Abe. |
Originally Posted by coastertrav
(Post 422241)
If only, if only....
Seeing this makes me regret going MS1 back in August. The adapter board looks fantastic, great job Abe. There's nothing to keep you from swapping to the MS-II, aside from the retune, etc. Just something you have to think about.
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 422225)
Here's the thread on it: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t33964/
The short version is that I added a second inverting stage to the driver so that the output now follows the actual state of the CPU pin, rather than being an active pulldown configuration. This eliminates the spark event at first powerup that causes some folks to get that initial backfire, and also ensures that the outputs are low any time the CPU is offline (such as during a firmware reflash) to prevent the ignition system from burning out if you forget to unplug it. So, as to the matter of royalty payments on that design... :D Although the ignition outputs basically pass right through on my board, you could intercept them on my board and build anything you wanted on the proto-area before passing them out again. |
So, are you planning to enclose this in a box of some kind to prevent shorts?
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I was going to put a mirror on my shoes, see up my shorts.
Anyway, no, I really didn't look at that yet - thought about it, never did. Looking at it, it'd be easy to either tweak it to fit in the stock case, or MAYBE squeeze them both in there, if you got creative. Wiring them together would be easy, though, the only hard part being the thicker wires for running injectors, etc. |
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 422512)
Wiring them together would be easy, though, the only hard part being the thicker wires for running injectors, etc.
I'd envisioned a small plastic box mounted atop the MS, with a short IDC cable joining the two. Perhaps with a couple of standoffs (for which I don't see holes in the board) you could simply screw the board directly to the lid of the MS. |
I toyed with the idea of putting it "above" the MS. So far, I like the idea of building it into the stock case the best. I'd heard people say it was complex, and seen a pic where someone did it with three boards, but by eyeball, it should drop right in. Just use run of the mill vertical DB37's and it'd be done. Could use crimp pins and it would go really fast to make a batch.
Then again, my boomslang (the connector at least) flaps in the breeze, and I'm just not that worried about it. Right now, an awesome heatsink is more what I'm looking to solve. |
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 422308)
There's nothing to keep you from swapping to the MS-II, aside from the retune, etc. Just something you have to think about.
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Originally Posted by coastertrav
(Post 422890)
Well...there is money, and the fact that half my stock harness is gutted of sensors the MS1 doesn't need (stock cam, crank, and most of the other wires running on top of the intake manifold).
I got another email full of questions of general interest: Well that cuts my MSII build time down quite a bit, As your board takes care of more issues than I initially thaught. The design is more PnP for the 1999-2000 than I had anticipated which is great. Jimstim really won't be needed, possibly a switch to disable coils while updating ECU could easily be added by the user. Pretty much looks like you covered everything. Am I correct you use high ohm injectors with this setup? Not to rush, do you think you will be completed testing in the next couple months? Looking to fit in some track days maybe in Sept / Oct. A switch can be added for the coils, you could easily fit one on the proto area (or have it on a longer wire and mount it somewhere more easy to reach), but there's already jumpers on the adapterboard you can just pull. There are longer, tailed jumpers which are easier to pull, I'd recommend using those on the ones you expect to pull regularly. As far as coils, just run Toyota COPs, and stop worrying, mine have never burned up, and I flash on there all the time. :-) I forget if it works with the stock coils... I run low ohm injectors on my car, and there's nothing about this set up which would prevent you from doing the same. The MS-II supports low ohm injectors in software. Their implementation is noisy, and you're better off with JBPerf's low ohm injector driver board, but it's more $$ and may require more tuning/setup. I've bought one, but haven't spent the money to populate it yet. As to when it's ready, I don't expect testing to take very long. My issue is not knowing a 99-00 car in SD or LA which I could reasonably test on. I'd like to find something with an unhacked harness, and ideally with a GM IAT sensor. My one friend keeps having wiring issues so I'm worried to try it on his car, plus he has an NA alternator. But it's all built, I'll post a pic of the MS V3,0 PCB to show how much stuff you get to leave off. If it wasn't for B&G being so f'ing protective, it would be trivial to combine the whole thing on one board and make an NB-MS-II computer which would BE PnP. -Abe. |
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 423141)
But it's all built, I'll post a pic of the MS V3,0 PCB to show how much stuff you get to leave off. If it wasn't for B&G being so f'ing protective, it would be trivial to combine the whole thing on one board and make an NB-MS-II computer which would BE PnP.
-Abe. |
Just a couple pics to give you an idea of what the MS looks like when it's completed.
The customer built the majority of this board, I just added in a few wires. http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/572881181_YRcqq-L.jpg Back Side. http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/572881712_6GoVJ-L.jpg Front side. You can really tell how much empty space there is. I guess you could stuff your ipod in there. :-) So far my only real complaint on the board is the small trace I put in to make clutch switch and the VVT share one pin on the MS (i.e. software configurable), which you are supposed to cut depending which you want to use (don't worry, you can jumper over it if you change your mind), anyway, that trace is very close to another trace so I imagine you could mistakenly cut through both. |
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer
(Post 423146)
The Microsquirt module will be out pretty soon, and it's made for exactly that sort of thing.
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Did I mention how badly I want to find a 99-00 Miata in the socal area to test on??? BADLY!
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Seriously, who'd want a 99.
I guess a short test drive would cover it. |
that sucks youre having a hard time finding a stock 99-00 to test on. no one on this forum spoke up yet?
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My best bet now is to fix my friend's car (bad wiring) and test there, but there's little confidence working on something which has lit it's own wiring harness on fire twice. EDIT: And he doesn't have a NB alternator, either.
Edit II: Look what I invented tonight. It's great if you're too lazy to smoke hookah on your own http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/574372274_ZH86X-L.jpg |
There's a guy in town with a '99 who's at least interested... Might get to test soon. :-)
-Abe. |
I have my NB in Glendale, CA, it's been sitting since April, and I won't need it till November, the only thing that's been done to it is COP conversion. your welcome to test on it. as long as you don't destroy it. lol pm me with details if you'd like
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I guess if I can get some test equipment together I could run up there. Perhaps on the weekend. The guy who's local said he's having mystery electronics issue (replacing both the ECU and the alternator didn't make his car charge. Great place to start testing the alternator circuit).....
Anyway, if his car starts working I'll test there, otherwise I'll hit you up. Thanks! -Abe. |
Good news! I hope everything goes well.
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Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 425080)
I guess if I can get some test equipment together I could run up there. Perhaps on the weekend. The guy who's local said he's having mystery electronics issue (replacing both the ECU and the alternator didn't make his car charge. Great place to start testing the alternator circuit).....
Anyway, if his car starts working I'll test there, otherwise I'll hit you up. Thanks! -Abe. keep me in mind, the car's not going anywhere for a little while |
Update:
A local guy said I could use his car, AFTER sunday. So, I'm hoping for monday. Long time to wait. I might try the inputs, at least, on my car, this weekend - if I can borrow a scope. |
Looks great. Put me on the list for purchasing this kit. I want to use it to build the MS2 for my 91.
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Awesome, yeah, that should be fun. Need to look at what signals jump, it should be configurable enough to handle it, though, no problem.
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If only I had known about this 3 weeks ago. My 99 is stock. And I was down there. Hope you find something. I am super interested in this.
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Heh, yeah, 3 weeks ago would have been perfect. No biggie, it'll come around.
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Hi Abe, did you get it tested?
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I know. It's getting ridiculous. There's a guy here who said "after sunday" but I haven't heard from him. I pinged him today, maybe I'll call him tomorrow.
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any luck abe?
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No!
The guy who said "in a couple days" a bunch of times finally bailed on me, so now I'm back to square one - I have a card I think will work, but can't test it. Very frustrating!! -Abe. |
Abe,
Just sell me one of your cards assembled. I want to start building my MS2. I will test it out for you. -Raj |
yes, there's a couple people in your boat - might have to be it. Expecting a batch of improved idle/boost/spare transistors, and should be able to put some completed units together this week. Will let everyone know!
-Abe. |
sounds good, but if you want to save yourself the trouble of assembling it, I gladly assemble one myself, i just gotta know where each part goes..
Keep us updated! Im ready for it! |
I would be in too (as you know)
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Ok, time for an update. After trying it on several people's cars with bad wiring, unknown sensors, etc, and waiting several weeks for people who said they would let me test on their cars, I spent half a morning getting all the wires sorted on my car, and kinda started to do a test.
Results (good): TPS, CLT, and similar sensors all worked. Ignition inputs seem to work Car will try to start, sort of catch, cough, and die again. Results (bad): I think the FAN, VICS, and IDLE are all messed up. Not sure. The fans are on, and I didn't figure out why yet. The VICS actually seems to be working, but it's hard to tell since I need 5000 RPM to make it switch (I could change it in software, but that's not what's limiting me) The idle valve isn't humming, which tells me there's a real problem, and yes, one which would keep it from starting. Also, thanks to the MSe people, I'm having real troubles finding matching versions of everything. Sometimes things are by date, sometimes by version number, sometimes they report the wrong info. Right now I seem to have version 2.1.0o in the computer and 2.1.0p in the software - I don't care what version I use, I just with it were consistent, at the same time I don't want to change the one on my regular DD MS, so I can still get to the beach. :-) Anyway, I'm going to take this board to the lab and debug it - I can power it off my voltage "ref" lines, so I don't really need a jimstim. that part is cool. Will keep everyone posted. Thanks all! -Abe. |
cool, good with the testing. I guess you werent able to test out the alternator circuit cause you couldnt get the car to idle at all
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Ok, interesting, my pulse widths seem to be at 33 ms. 33 ms on start up, with 100* coolant? What the hell? That's 550 cc injectors (req fuel 6.0).
Something is weird. Any ideas? edit: That's on the Stim, my board/car isn't invovled. |
Originally Posted by Marc D
(Post 434694)
cool, good with the testing. I guess you werent able to test out the alternator circuit cause you couldnt get the car to idle at all
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Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 434712)
Ok, interesting, my pulse widths seem to be at 33 ms. 33 ms on start up, with 100* coolant? What the hell? That's 550 cc injectors (req fuel 6.0).
Something is weird. Any ideas? edit: That's on the Stim, my board/car isn't invovled. For the idle, would it be possible to do the mod on the main board, then just pass the line directly to the adapterboard then to the harness plug? maybe that might clear up the idle problem? |
Yeah - I'm not yet sure where the idle issue is. I'll just have to dig into it with an oscope.
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Post the schematic of your idle circuit, if you like!
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oh abe, as far as the correct version to use, you should download the most recent "release" version. It was released on 6/27. I think it willl give a good start for most people
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Just got back to it, I think I'm going to dig a bit. Looks like the idle is working on the Stim (so the MS is ok there), but not on my board. So I think it's two unrelated problems.
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miataturbo > *
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I just want to say how amazingly awesome the little row of signal interrupts is. :-) I've been able to put the jimstim in in parallel, making debugging both the code and the board much more easy.
I'm not as much a fan of my jumping the idle valve transistor, since, if you plug it right into the stim, the CPU has to sink all the current from the LED, which is fails to do, dropping the LED to only ~2.3V. Won't be doing much more of that! -Abe. P.S. For those keeping track, the idle valve seems to be working (if not the MS's "idle valve test" function - not sure why yet), so now I need to check I didn't just make a no-brainer mistake and put the idle out on the wrong OEM harness pin. |
If you did put it on a wrong pin, that would really suck. Probably need to make more boards again?
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There is your answer about the test mode:
"That feature might be broken. Ken" |
Everything's on the right pin, and the signals pulls through fine - I pulled it up with a resistor and it acts as it should. Perhaps it IS working, it just seems more quiet than before.
What's got me more concerned is this factor of ten in the fuel delivery, and the fact that one of the two ignition LED's never quite goes off. This is more trouble shooting the MS than the board! -Abe. |
Ok, new transistors are on the way, I should have everything I need to kit whole boards here within a week. Hopefully by then I get it running on my car, find a volunteer to verify the alternator and AC controls work, and could get stuff out to all of you soon! Very happy about this, and not just because I need the space. :-)
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Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 437277)
Ok, new transistors are on the way, I should have everything I need to kit whole boards here within a week. Hopefully by then I get it running on my car, find a volunteer to verify the alternator and AC controls work, and could get stuff out to all of you soon! Very happy about this, and not just because I need the space. :-)
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Great news Abe. I am looking forward to getting my hands on the board.
-Raj |
What was the earlier problem with the pulse widths related to? Wrong type of transistor?
Thanks a bunch for doing this, I've been aching to get MSII set up, trying to read up on Frank's way, but his modifications look very tedious to set up and getting the correct parts might be a pain too. Speaking of alternator circuit, Frank said that the alternator circuit on his board worked IIRC, so it should work just fine :x: |
Woo-Hoo!
At the risk of jinxing myself... The pulse widths were from taking my MSQ and putting in to an MS built differently.
My knock sensor in line was *shared* with the barometeric correction. So, any bouncing on the line moved the fuel all over the place. In software I set baro to initial read, and put the knock on it's own pin (and set the internal pullup - nice of them to include it in software) and all is well. Now everything looks right on the stim. Time to wedge it into my car once more, and try to track down the idle thing, then I'm all good. -Abe. |
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