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Old 06-19-2009, 05:05 PM   #1
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Default Abe's NB-MSII Adapterboard/PnP

Wow, well, there's lots of interest in this apparently, so I'm starting a new thread, linking over from:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t25789/#post421407

Quote:
Good lord! Talk about lots of interest. Well, it's supposed to be a teaser, since I haven't actual run it yet, but with the exception of the included (good spot on the cap! Unfortunately it semi-blocks some of the jumper labels. I might mount it on the back of the board next time) alternator control (Thanks Jason!) it's all stuff I've build multiple times before and I know works.

To answer some questions:
1) As a backup, there's a line out to use the Mopar alternator control box as I've done on my car. Seems the success rate with that is about the same as with Jason's - 50% over all, 100% when done by the person who first came up with it. :-)
2) WBO2, Knocksense MS are both handled by the board, both in terms of providing switched power and raw signals out, as well as receiving signals back in. All this is done on the terminal blocks. (For additional reliability, solder wires to this instead, but it's less flexible)
3) I'm pretty sure they will need heat sinks. I haven't decided if I should get the little extruded ones and put them on separate, or a bar and insulators.
4) The row of jumpers in the middle will allow the tinkerer to break any signal, inspect or modify it. Also useful for rerouting for different years. I have one pin used as VVT out or a spare, and a clutch switch in. For a slightly more reliable solution, just soldering wire across is the way to go.
5) The board is designed to use a stock MS-II. Only a few wires would need to be changed, basically stuff to bring out the right spare pins, and bypass the majority of the MS's (very poor) inputs. The idea was you'd buy an assembled MS, run ~4-10 wires, but no resistors, diodes, or anything else, and plug it into this board and be good to go.

Other background questions I've seen: Yes, it's for full standalone. You can use the spare line to control the purge solenoid if you want - for emissions, or as an idle adjust as some have done/suggested for AC compensation. The biggest issue most NB people are finding is the input circuits, this incorporates almost exactly the OEM inputs. If you really want to rev very very high, you might leave the caps out.

If I get enough interest, I'll probably buy a stack of the OEM connectors, when doing my boomslang, those f'ing connectors and their shipping was like 20% of the whole MS project.


Lastly: TeamPlur can help me out as he has a fairly stock 2000 miata, but I would be very interested in finding a like minded SoCal person who would like to let me plug this into a car with a stock wiring harness and see how it all works. I figure I'm a few days to a week away from having the MS ready... Once I get a parts list together (instead of built out of scavenged parts like this one was) I'll be able to find some pricing for both "kits" and assembled units. Likely I'll be able to have people send me a pre-built MS, mod it and send back a 'turn key' where all they have to do stick the boost control soleniod wires in and call it good.


Just some pics:




Want to check how close the render is to the real deal?


Debagged



The circuit that started it all




Mostly populated


Fully populated



Top Down



Back side


It's still untested, but it feels good to see it all come together. Thanks Jean, Harv, and the rest of you (At DIYEFI.org) for the pointers along the way.



Last edited by AbeFM; 06-19-2009 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:51 PM   #2
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Abe,
Looks good.
Currently building the MSII for my 99 supercharged trying to figure out which way to go for my Ignition. Have the EDIS, have the CAS 94-97 and ECU connectors for standalone still deciding which way to go.

So the purpose built PC board is looking really nice, really nice. Very interested in a board like that.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:53 PM   #3
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looks good! Keep us updated, Im ready to put down money for it.

EDIT: Will the spark mods be incorporated into the board, or do they still need to be done on the MS? (Using the new inverted spark outputs by Joe?)

Last edited by Marc D; 06-19-2009 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:41 AM   #4
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Thanks everyone - yes, the idea is to have it ready to go - the first run was only ten boards, I'll admit I didn't honestly think there'd be any danger of running out! :-) But making more is straight forward now that the design is all set up, so baring any issues in early testing, I could probably get "ready to assemble" kits out the door pretty soon.

Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that. My goal was that you wouldn't have to add anything but wires inside the MS - no diodes to keep track of the orientation, no resistors to sort through or anything like that. You wouldn't need to do the idle mod, either, since I've got a better driver "outside the box".

As far as ignition, it's set up to run the stock coils, and my personal recommendation is just to run the toyota Coil On Plug set up everyone does. You can get a set <$100, and you'll never have to buy spark plug cables again. Plus anyone running boost can still have a huge spark gap, so it's a good thing all around. My board just passes the logic level signals out.

It should be plug and play as much as possible, it's got the joe-inspired AC working... Anyway, I'll just have to get to testing this next week and will be able to say a lot more then. :-)

If I can find some big NPN's to replace the ones on there, with the rear emitter-common so I don't need to isolate them it'd look better, but not really change anything.

Alright, past my bed time. :-)
-Abe.
-Abe.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Thanks everyone - yes, the idea is to have it ready to go - the first run was only ten boards, I'll admit I didn't honestly think there'd be any danger of running out! :-) But making more is straight forward now that the design is all set up, so baring any issues in early testing, I could probably get "ready to assemble" kits out the door pretty soon.

Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that. My goal was that you wouldn't have to add anything but wires inside the MS - no diodes to keep track of the orientation, no resistors to sort through or anything like that. You wouldn't need to do the idle mod, either, since I've got a better driver "outside the box".

As far as ignition, it's set up to run the stock coils, and my personal recommendation is just to run the toyota Coil On Plug set up everyone does. You can get a set <$100, and you'll never have to buy spark plug cables again. Plus anyone running boost can still have a huge spark gap, so it's a good thing all around. My board just passes the logic level signals out.

It should be plug and play as much as possible, it's got the joe-inspired AC working... Anyway, I'll just have to get to testing this next week and will be able to say a lot more then. :-)

If I can find some big NPN's to replace the ones on there, with the rear emitter-common so I don't need to isolate them it'd look better, but not really change anything.

Alright, past my bed time. :-)
-Abe.
-Abe.
Awesome. Thanks for the update. Joe's new spark outputs require us to put the ignition into "inverted spark" rather than our current non-inverted set up. It cures the "pop" at start up some cars are having problem with.

I'll be first in line when you get those things tested and ready to roll.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Marc D View Post
Awesome. Thanks for the update. Joe's new spark outputs require us to put the ignition into "inverted spark" rather than our current non-inverted set up. It cures the "pop" at start up some cars are having problem with.

I'll be first in line when you get those things tested and ready to roll.
Also sounds good to me, Ill be #2 in line.
I should have my MSII ready for an install in the the very near future, keep us updated on the progress and testing. Also have a few of the 64pin male connectors w/ pins if you do not have many available for a couple builds.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Re: Joe's spark mod? Haven't seen it, but if it's what I think, it'd be something like that.
Here's the thread on it: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t33964/

The short version is that I added a second inverting stage to the driver so that the output now follows the actual state of the CPU pin, rather than being an active pulldown configuration. This eliminates the spark event at first powerup that causes some folks to get that initial backfire, and also ensures that the outputs are low any time the CPU is offline (such as during a firmware reflash) to prevent the ignition system from burning out if you forget to unplug it.

Quote:
it's got the joe-inspired AC working...
So, as to the matter of royalty payments on that design...
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:09 PM   #8
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If only, if only....

Seeing this makes me regret going MS1 back in August. The adapter board looks fantastic, great job Abe.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:10 PM   #9
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If only, if only....

Seeing this makes me regret going MS1 back in August. The adapter board looks fantastic, great job Abe.
Thanks for the compliment. Hopefully it works out ok. :-) I just put the cheesiest heatsink in the world on this first board, should work well but it ain't pretty. :-P

There's nothing to keep you from swapping to the MS-II, aside from the retune, etc. Just something you have to think about.


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Here's the thread on it: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t33964/

The short version is that I added a second inverting stage to the driver so that the output now follows the actual state of the CPU pin, rather than being an active pulldown configuration. This eliminates the spark event at first powerup that causes some folks to get that initial backfire, and also ensures that the outputs are low any time the CPU is offline (such as during a firmware reflash) to prevent the ignition system from burning out if you forget to unplug it.

So, as to the matter of royalty payments on that design...
Huh. I remember having that issue... then (a few coils later) going to COP and it not mattering anymore. It's my own fault for thinking everyone will use the solution I would.

Although the ignition outputs basically pass right through on my board, you could intercept them on my board and build anything you wanted on the proto-area before passing them out again.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:46 PM   #10
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So, are you planning to enclose this in a box of some kind to prevent shorts?
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:38 AM   #11
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I was going to put a mirror on my shoes, see up my shorts.

Anyway, no, I really didn't look at that yet - thought about it, never did.

Looking at it, it'd be easy to either tweak it to fit in the stock case, or MAYBE squeeze them both in there, if you got creative. Wiring them together would be easy, though, the only hard part being the thicker wires for running injectors, etc.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:08 AM   #12
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Wiring them together would be easy, though, the only hard part being the thicker wires for running injectors, etc.
If you keep the lines short, you can probably get away with 26/28 AWG ribbon cable. That's how the MSPnPs are wired internally (for a run of about 15cm) and it seems to work for them. You know the rule- I^2R.

I'd envisioned a small plastic box mounted atop the MS, with a short IDC cable joining the two. Perhaps with a couple of standoffs (for which I don't see holes in the board) you could simply screw the board directly to the lid of the MS.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:09 PM   #13
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I toyed with the idea of putting it "above" the MS. So far, I like the idea of building it into the stock case the best. I'd heard people say it was complex, and seen a pic where someone did it with three boards, but by eyeball, it should drop right in. Just use run of the mill vertical DB37's and it'd be done. Could use crimp pins and it would go really fast to make a batch.

Then again, my boomslang (the connector at least) flaps in the breeze, and I'm just not that worried about it. Right now, an awesome heatsink is more what I'm looking to solve.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:01 PM   #14
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There's nothing to keep you from swapping to the MS-II, aside from the retune, etc. Just something you have to think about.
Well...there is money, and the fact that half my stock harness is gutted of sensors the MS1 doesn't need (stock cam, crank, and most of the other wires running on top of the intake manifold).
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:05 PM   #15
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Well...there is money, and the fact that half my stock harness is gutted of sensors the MS1 doesn't need (stock cam, crank, and most of the other wires running on top of the intake manifold).
Oh yeah. That's sort of the same reason I don't use the board. I finally found a mounting place for the MS, got my harness issues all worked out, etc. It's kinda a long process when you do it all by hand. I'm actually jealous of the folks who get to use this. :-P

I got another email full of questions of general interest:
Quote:
Well that cuts my MSII build time down quite a bit, As your board takes care of more issues than I initially thaught.

The design is more PnP for the 1999-2000 than I had anticipated which is great. Jimstim really won't be needed, possibly a switch to disable coils while updating ECU could easily be added by the user. Pretty much looks like you covered everything. Am I correct you use high ohm injectors with this setup?

Not to rush, do you think you will be completed testing in the next couple months? Looking to fit in some track days maybe in Sept / Oct.
Yeah, the idea was for it to be as close to PnP as possible. Right now you have to run ~10 wires from the various output pins of the MS to where ever you pic up the signals on the board. You just grab the signals for the spark at the diodes as usual, but if you don't want to use pullups (and don't mind losing the LED functionality) you could save a step by just bridging the wire you are adding anyway across BOTH LED terminals. You'll lose the light show, which I think is a nice debugging tool, but it's an option for the absolute easiest wiring job.

A switch can be added for the coils, you could easily fit one on the proto area (or have it on a longer wire and mount it somewhere more easy to reach), but there's already jumpers on the adapterboard you can just pull. There are longer, tailed jumpers which are easier to pull, I'd recommend using those on the ones you expect to pull regularly. As far as coils, just run Toyota COPs, and stop worrying, mine have never burned up, and I flash on there all the time. :-) I forget if it works with the stock coils...

I run low ohm injectors on my car, and there's nothing about this set up which would prevent you from doing the same. The MS-II supports low ohm injectors in software. Their implementation is noisy, and you're better off with JBPerf's low ohm injector driver board, but it's more $$ and may require more tuning/setup. I've bought one, but haven't spent the money to populate it yet.

As to when it's ready, I don't expect testing to take very long. My issue is not knowing a 99-00 car in SD or LA which I could reasonably test on. I'd like to find something with an unhacked harness, and ideally with a GM IAT sensor. My one friend keeps having wiring issues so I'm worried to try it on his car, plus he has an NA alternator.

But it's all built, I'll post a pic of the MS V3,0 PCB to show how much stuff you get to leave off. If it wasn't for B&G being so f'ing protective, it would be trivial to combine the whole thing on one board and make an NB-MS-II computer which would BE PnP.
-Abe.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:14 PM   #16
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But it's all built, I'll post a pic of the MS V3,0 PCB to show how much stuff you get to leave off. If it wasn't for B&G being so f'ing protective, it would be trivial to combine the whole thing on one board and make an NB-MS-II computer which would BE PnP.
-Abe.
The Microsquirt module will be out pretty soon, and it's made for exactly that sort of thing.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:22 PM   #17
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Just a couple pics to give you an idea of what the MS looks like when it's completed.

The customer built the majority of this board, I just added in a few wires.


Back Side.


Front side.

You can really tell how much empty space there is. I guess you could stuff your ipod in there. :-)

So far my only real complaint on the board is the small trace I put in to make clutch switch and the VVT share one pin on the MS (i.e. software configurable), which you are supposed to cut depending which you want to use (don't worry, you can jumper over it if you change your mind), anyway, that trace is very close to another trace so I imagine you could mistakenly cut through both.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:25 PM   #18
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The Microsquirt module will be out pretty soon, and it's made for exactly that sort of thing.
Should be pretty nice. One nice thing about the V3.0 board, it's been out long enough for people to know where the bodies are buried. :-) I'll probably end up with one of those modules on my motorcycle. Can't wait!
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Old 06-25-2009, 06:59 PM   #19
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Did I mention how badly I want to find a 99-00 Miata in the socal area to test on??? BADLY!
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:03 PM   #20
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