Alternator probs, experts in electrical needed
12-08-2017, 09:04 AM
#1
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Alternator probs, experts in electrical needed
95 turbo NA
always charged, then stoped after the last motor change.
2 brand new alternators later, my car will not charge. one from autozone and one from NAPA. Installed new units and get ZERO volts from them. nothing in tuner studio changed afaik.
Then while following instructions how to test the main relay- SMOKE ! Lots of white electrical smoke. searching searching searching, Ahh HA, found the burned wire. It was the signal wire from my MS to the VVT solenoid. How in the hell could this be? Is it even related, or was it a result of my inept electrical diagnosis method?
Here are the instructions I was attempting to follow written by Joe Perez - no fault on him, Im sure I fucked something up all on my own:
1. With the ignition key off, you should see +12V on the white / green wire. This tells us that the path from the INJ fuse is ok.
2. Now, with the ignition key on, you should see +12V on the black / white wire. This is the signal coming from the ENGINE fuse which tells the main relay to turn on.
3. Once you have +12V on the black / white wire, then you should also see it on the white / red wire. This is the output of the main relay.
4. If you have +12 on black / white but not white / red, turn the key back off and switch your meter to resistance mode. Measure between the black wire and chassis. You should see close to 0 ohms. (full continuity.)
5. Still in resistance mode, measure between the black / white and chassis. You should see perhaps between 100 and 1000 ohms. Remove the cooling fan relay and re-measure, and you should see a slightly different value, but still somewhere in that range.
The red line is where i burned things up. Thoroughly confused as to how I manages to back-feed either through the solenoid or through the MS. Again, the entire VVT signal wire fried, but no visible damage to the MS.
checking every single ground tonight, but wanted additional info and things to look for. Ideas?
always charged, then stoped after the last motor change.
2 brand new alternators later, my car will not charge. one from autozone and one from NAPA. Installed new units and get ZERO volts from them. nothing in tuner studio changed afaik.
Then while following instructions how to test the main relay- SMOKE ! Lots of white electrical smoke. searching searching searching, Ahh HA, found the burned wire. It was the signal wire from my MS to the VVT solenoid. How in the hell could this be? Is it even related, or was it a result of my inept electrical diagnosis method?
Here are the instructions I was attempting to follow written by Joe Perez - no fault on him, Im sure I fucked something up all on my own:
1. With the ignition key off, you should see +12V on the white / green wire. This tells us that the path from the INJ fuse is ok.
2. Now, with the ignition key on, you should see +12V on the black / white wire. This is the signal coming from the ENGINE fuse which tells the main relay to turn on.
3. Once you have +12V on the black / white wire, then you should also see it on the white / red wire. This is the output of the main relay.
4. If you have +12 on black / white but not white / red, turn the key back off and switch your meter to resistance mode. Measure between the black wire and chassis. You should see close to 0 ohms. (full continuity.)
5. Still in resistance mode, measure between the black / white and chassis. You should see perhaps between 100 and 1000 ohms. Remove the cooling fan relay and re-measure, and you should see a slightly different value, but still somewhere in that range.
The red line is where i burned things up. Thoroughly confused as to how I manages to back-feed either through the solenoid or through the MS. Again, the entire VVT signal wire fried, but no visible damage to the MS.
checking every single ground tonight, but wanted additional info and things to look for. Ideas?
Last edited by ryansmoneypit; 12-13-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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12-08-2017, 01:03 PM
#2
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I'm not an electronic expert but I would never start measuring resistence with the battery connected.
What is the point of risking a short circuit? you can always do the same resistence checks without any voltage around.
What is the point of risking a short circuit? you can always do the same resistence checks without any voltage around.
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12-08-2017, 01:18 PM
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like I said, I dont know what the hell im doing. I was just following some directions directed at solving the same issue. I just know the car charged on Monday, then hasn't ever since.
I sure as hell shouldn't be trying to figure it OUT / LEARN after working all day, but it is what it is.
I sure as hell shouldn't be trying to figure it OUT / LEARN after working all day, but it is what it is.
Last edited by ryansmoneypit; 12-08-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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12-08-2017, 10:35 PM
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like I said, I dont know what the hell im doing. I was just following some directions directed at solving the same issue. I just know the car charged on Monday, then hasn't ever since.
I sure as hell shouldn't be trying to figure it OUT / LEARN after working all day, but it is what it is.
I sure as hell shouldn't be trying to figure it OUT / LEARN after working all day, but it is what it is.
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12-12-2017, 05:33 PM
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I'm not going to be much help here since I don't have a NB and I swapped out the factory alternator for something lighter, but I started having charging problems with my car recently and new alternator didn't fix it.
The original 95 alternator was swapped out for some alternator of unknown source that was lighter yet still was rated at 60A. The swap involved some wiring changes as the plug was different. Now this unit was charging just fine for many months, maybe even a year. Suddenly it crapped out, killed the battery, had to be towed home. Replaced battery for a strong unit and took alternator to auto store to check and it checked out fine. Got it back in the car and it charged. Drove to an event next week and car died, battery dead, had to get another alternator delivered to event.
Installed alternator with fully charged battery and everything checked out. During event, alternator was charging and not charging. WTF? Drove car home by pulling over every 10 miles and boosting it from support vehicle for 15 minutes and repeat. Ran cable directly from large positive terminal on alternator to battery; no charge.
Gave up and without any further diagnosis proceeded to get another alternator that was yet even lighter and had a self exciting regulator so now I don't need any plug or anything else to make the thing work. So far so good but.... TS reports voltage in the 12.x volts range while multimeter reports voltage closer to 14 volts.
So, given how old these cars are I suspect the resistance in the connections/wiring is just getting too high. Get thyself a good wiring diagram of the charging system for your car and inspect/disconnect/connect all plugs and measure resistance of any and all wires. Or get an alternator with a self exciting regulator and be done with it.
The original 95 alternator was swapped out for some alternator of unknown source that was lighter yet still was rated at 60A. The swap involved some wiring changes as the plug was different. Now this unit was charging just fine for many months, maybe even a year. Suddenly it crapped out, killed the battery, had to be towed home. Replaced battery for a strong unit and took alternator to auto store to check and it checked out fine. Got it back in the car and it charged. Drove to an event next week and car died, battery dead, had to get another alternator delivered to event.
Installed alternator with fully charged battery and everything checked out. During event, alternator was charging and not charging. WTF? Drove car home by pulling over every 10 miles and boosting it from support vehicle for 15 minutes and repeat. Ran cable directly from large positive terminal on alternator to battery; no charge.
Gave up and without any further diagnosis proceeded to get another alternator that was yet even lighter and had a self exciting regulator so now I don't need any plug or anything else to make the thing work. So far so good but.... TS reports voltage in the 12.x volts range while multimeter reports voltage closer to 14 volts.
So, given how old these cars are I suspect the resistance in the connections/wiring is just getting too high. Get thyself a good wiring diagram of the charging system for your car and inspect/disconnect/connect all plugs and measure resistance of any and all wires. Or get an alternator with a self exciting regulator and be done with it.
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12-13-2017, 04:23 AM
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Your answer seems to lie here. https://trubokitty.com/#/ms3xassembly
The NB alternators require an output from the ECU. It's tied to the vvt out pin.
The NB alternators require an output from the ECU. It's tied to the vvt out pin.
Last edited by SpartanSV; 12-13-2017 at 04:34 AM.
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12-13-2017, 08:40 AM
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Clean the main battery ground cable with sandpaper at the rear of the ppf. Then check voltage difference again.
It may also be worth cleaning the strap from the back of the block to the body at both ends.
If there's still a problem, the main relay is next. Use an ohmmeter to test resistance across it. Should be nearly zero. You could also check it for a voltage drop across it.
It may also be worth cleaning the strap from the back of the block to the body at both ends.
If there's still a problem, the main relay is next. Use an ohmmeter to test resistance across it. Should be nearly zero. You could also check it for a voltage drop across it.
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12-13-2017, 11:42 AM
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95 turbo NA
2 brand new alternators later, my car will not charge. one from autozone and one from NAPA. Installed new units and get ZERO volts from them. nothing in tuner studio changed afaik.
Then while following instructions how to test the main relay- SMOKE ! Lots of white electrical smoke. searching searching searching, Ahh HA, found the burned wire. It was the signal wire from my MS to the VVT solenoid. How in the hell could this be? Is it even related, or was it a result of my inept electrical diagnosis method?
Here are the instructions I was attempting to follow written by Joe Perez - no fault on him, Im sure I fucked something up all on my own:
1. With the ignition key off, you should see +12V on the white / green wire. This tells us that the path from the INJ fuse is ok.
2. Now, with the ignition key on, you should see +12V on the black / white wire. This is the signal coming from the ENGINE fuse which tells the main relay to turn on.
3. Once you have +12V on the black / white wire, then you should also see it on the white / red wire. This is the output of the main relay.
4. If you have +12 on black / white but not white / red, turn the key back off and switch your meter to resistance mode. Measure between the black wire and chassis. You should see close to 0 ohms. (full continuity.)
5. Still in resistance mode, measure between the black / white and chassis. You should see perhaps between 100 and 1000 ohms. Remove the cooling fan relay and re-measure, and you should see a slightly different value, but still somewhere in that range.
The red line is where i burned things up. Thoroughly confused as to how I manages to back-feed either through the solenoid or through the MS. Again, the entire VVT signal wire fried, but no visible damage to the MS.
2 brand new alternators later, my car will not charge. one from autozone and one from NAPA. Installed new units and get ZERO volts from them. nothing in tuner studio changed afaik.
Then while following instructions how to test the main relay- SMOKE ! Lots of white electrical smoke. searching searching searching, Ahh HA, found the burned wire. It was the signal wire from my MS to the VVT solenoid. How in the hell could this be? Is it even related, or was it a result of my inept electrical diagnosis method?
Here are the instructions I was attempting to follow written by Joe Perez - no fault on him, Im sure I fucked something up all on my own:
1. With the ignition key off, you should see +12V on the white / green wire. This tells us that the path from the INJ fuse is ok.
2. Now, with the ignition key on, you should see +12V on the black / white wire. This is the signal coming from the ENGINE fuse which tells the main relay to turn on.
3. Once you have +12V on the black / white wire, then you should also see it on the white / red wire. This is the output of the main relay.
4. If you have +12 on black / white but not white / red, turn the key back off and switch your meter to resistance mode. Measure between the black wire and chassis. You should see close to 0 ohms. (full continuity.)
5. Still in resistance mode, measure between the black / white and chassis. You should see perhaps between 100 and 1000 ohms. Remove the cooling fan relay and re-measure, and you should see a slightly different value, but still somewhere in that range.
The red line is where i burned things up. Thoroughly confused as to how I manages to back-feed either through the solenoid or through the MS. Again, the entire VVT signal wire fried, but no visible damage to the MS.
Joe's focusing on the main relay because it's a major headache for a lot of people, but the red flag for me is that it stopped after a motor swap. I'd double check the main battery cable on the starter and alternator. If the alternator is spinning and grounded, it should provide regulated voltage at the battery post.
Is the charge light on at the dash when you go KOEO?
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12-13-2017, 11:59 AM
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Are you sure you followed the above highlighted step?
Joe's focusing on the main relay because it's a major headache for a lot of people, but the red flag for me is that it stopped after a motor swap. I'd double check the main battery cable on the starter and alternator. If the alternator is spinning and grounded, it should provide regulated voltage at the battery post.
Is the charge light on at the dash when you go KOEO?
Joe's focusing on the main relay because it's a major headache for a lot of people, but the red flag for me is that it stopped after a motor swap. I'd double check the main battery cable on the starter and alternator. If the alternator is spinning and grounded, it should provide regulated voltage at the battery post.
Is the charge light on at the dash when you go KOEO?
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12-13-2017, 03:20 PM
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VVT in NA chassis. car ran and all circuits (including charging) worked fine until most recent engine removal / install.
Thinking about it, the ONLY other new thing added was the introduction of full sequential ignition. used two of the spark outputs and sent them to two other coils. very straight forward.
Thinking about it, the ONLY other new thing added was the introduction of full sequential ignition. used two of the spark outputs and sent them to two other coils. very straight forward.
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01-24-2018, 10:21 PM
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Just for a detail point, while the NA alt has a built in regulator, the feedback for the regulator (at least on the early NA) comes from the load side of the inj fuse. The alternator may have a protection mechanism that prevents them from charging if that fuse is blown. If the VVT solenoid is common with a sneak path to the injector fuse net, high current there could smoke it.
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01-24-2018, 10:24 PM
#20
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Sneak path could have been shared through the cooling fan relay. Once removed, all of the current through the vvt solenoid? Must be a fly back diode involved in the solenoid driver or something for this to make sense.
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