Another person with idle woes
 

So my 99 with and 04 MSM engine [MS2PNP for 99-00, forged internals, port work, id1000s, 36-1 trigger wheel] will not idle for shit.
I disconnect the IACV it just oscillates. I connect the IACV it oscillates then stalls.
I checked for vacuum leaks I couldn't find any nor could my carb cleaner (but this is never 100% ya know)
The idle valve test in MS doesn't work. Fidle output doesn't work.

So I figure the IACV is bad. I ordered one for $199. Fuck me right.
We'll see if it fixes it but I highly doubt it will since it just oscillates while it's disconnected, but what do I know.

Any and all help would be great on this.
Here's my build post with info and logs and tune file.
https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...7/#post1053284


I'm probably just retarded and it's something simple but since I've been working 12 hour shifts for 2 weeks now my mind is just not all there for this car.

Thanks for your time in reading my dribble.

I feel your pain. I just fought my bone stock 2003 for about 6 weeks to finally get it to idle properly on my Rev MS2, in preparation for the turbo. Also dealing with a 1974 280z big turbo car on a DIY built MS2 that has been fighting me a bit as well. Getting a proper, consistent idle with MS has always been a challenge, but it is doable. I'll take a look at your other thread and see if I can tweak your MSQ and get you started. Just an FYI, I have a shop with a dyno over in Orlando if you need someone to tune this beast once it's up and running.

why would you buy a new idle valve? you can just take the old one off and see if it works. Its literally just a solenoid.

My idle also oscillates but a little bit. Oscillating is usually caused by something changing - timing, fuel, whatever. So make sure all those are fixed - set the fuel cells to the exact same VE, set timing to the exact same value, disconnect IAC connector and see if it stabilizes.

Thanks Strato, I may have to hit you up about that dyno tune. Are you the actual one that does the tuning?

There's one thing bothering me, my AFR signal into my MS is now oscillating, with car off. you can see it in the data logs. I'm thinking it may have a connection to the oscillating idle, but my AFR gauge doesn't oscillate.

I'm also thinking of upgrading the firmware from 3.2.1.


I never thought about that. as said before I'm stupid hah.
I'll test that out today, timing was put to 10 fixed last night I'll try the fuel as well.
Then I'll just remove the valve to check it like you said. I can always return the part. it's factory direct so I wanted to get the shipping started early.

I'm also going to check my EGR block off plate, I think I forgot about that when I was checking fir vacuum leaks.

Also may be relevant information, the car doesn't want to rev, when I rev up too 1500-2000 with the throttle it's like launch control, turbo is spooling, blow off, popping and stuff. Ya know things all the kids like.
I have a crappy cell phone video of it if you other peeps want to watch its stupidity.

Yeah I do all of the stand-alone tuning at the shop. My partner does all of our OEM Flash tuning email stuff. I've been doing Megasquirts for a while, since MS1, but mostly on Rotaries. If you really hate yourself try getting a freshly rebuilt rotary engine started and idling on a fresh Megasquirt install.... FML!

I took a look at your logs and MSQ, there wasn't anything that readily jumped out at me, but I made a couple tweaks, and have a few suggestions.

You're at the point right now where you need to start removing variables from the equation in order to determine where your problem lies. It's either hardware or software, and you can't fix hardware with software. Meaning you can't fix a mechanical problem with tuning.

That being said, your car will idle without the IAC. So, remove it, build a block off plate. Because simply disconnecting it only keeps the valve from cycling, you have no way to know where the valve is relative to the seat, so you essentially will have a fixed vacuum leak that you can't adjust. So, block it off and open the throttle set screw until it's around 900 rpm when warmed up, or as close as you can get it. Be sure to re-cal your TPS sensor after adjusting the set screw. Now we've removed the IAC as a possibility.

I made some adjustments in your tune that should have the timing fixed at idle at 18 degrees above 150 degrees, this should be a good value for a stable idle. Everything off idle will follow the values in Ignition 1 table. Now we've removed ignition timing as being a source of oscillation.

I also set your VE values in the idle range to 40, this will likely be too rich, but again, by making the values the same we can reduce the chance of them being a source of oscillation. Once the oscillation is gone these values can be properly tuned, if the AFR's are too rich to keep the car running, then you can reduce them, but reduce them all equally.

As for your wideband, I've never personally used the Prosport unit, so I can't speak for its accuracy or reliability. My preferred "budget" wideband is the AEM UEGO. I prefer the AEM over the Innovate LC-1 for ease of install as well as Innovate's know issues with ground offsets and my own experience of poor reliability. But, if you prefer the Prosport gauge, for now, disconnect the input into the MS. No one says you have to have wideband input into MS, and in fact, I always disable EGO correction at idle at least until it's dialed in. Your tune was already set-up for that, but I made a couple more corrections to the EGO control scheme. You'll still use your Prosport for tuning, you'll just need to watch the gauge and make corrections, no big deal for idle.

So, now that I've given you some homework... try this stuff out and let's see how it does. If it's still oscillating wildly then you'll need to start looking at hardware issues. I noticed in your build thread that you were having some Cam/Crank Sync issues, if you haven't sorted those out and these suggestions don't help, I would take a second look at this issue.

Ken

Yeah I'd like/love to be able to use VE live for street tuning.

So I took off my TB today and took off the IACv. I hooked up some power to it and it comes on. It blocks most but not all air when off (very little bit of air gets past).
I couldn't test the plug for 12v since one of my multi meters probes ends broke in the past.
I'll get some wire to shove in the plug to get a test though.
I was however able to plug and unplug the IACv without any change in idle besides the oscillation.

I'll test the fixed timing and fuel tomorrow too.
Tonight was a late night fellas.

Alright so, I still have an idle problem.
I have everything fixed. Fuel, Timing, and air should all be constant rate. Yet I still get oscillation.

Attached is the log of the idle while I was spraying carb cleaner for the 5th time all over the place trying to find an vacuum leak. Though I have good idle vac.

Also the tune file so you can see the fixed settings and what not.

I don't understand that with ID1000's at 46 on the fuel map I'm lean?
I also can't stand this oscillating AFR input my MS is receiving.

If anyone has noticed when the car is on my BattV is reading at 11.6v usually. Battery light is on in the car. I believe my alternator isn't working, seems weird to me since I've only owned the car 1.5-1.75years and I replaced it a few months after I got it. I guess things happen when a car sits for 7-8months though.

What do yall think? Alternator the culprit maybe? :facepalm:

Not near my laptop right now, but I'll look at the logs when I am. But low battery voltage will definitely effect the idle. There are several settings in MS that are based on battery voltage. You need to be seeing a minimum of 12.5 volts when running, but ideally it should be between 13 and 14. Put a battery charger on it for now or hook it up to another car with jumper cables to test, before you go buying an alternator.

Did you disconnect the wideband input into MS? Do it as a test, again removing variables from the equation. Once you get the idle right you can work on getting the wideband input fixed. Right now it's just compounding the problem.

I switched EGO off anything else that would try to correct fuel. I left the wideband input in so the datalog show the AFRs.

I'll do a test with jumper cables I suppose. it has me thinking, I just got my MS back from DIYAutotune because of a burnt component ( some adjustable thing that the o2 signal goes too. I'm wondering if there's possible damage to the
1) voltage regulator as from my understanding 99+ have them inside ecu
2) the oscillating afr signal means the dashpot(?) for o2 input needs adjusted.

DIYAutotune tested the ecu before they sent it back though.
I'm pulling my gauge cluster soon as well seeing as I have the infamous dead Nb tach, and one if my LED blubs(for the tach) is out .

All these electrical problems because someone attracted a battery charger to my car and set it to the 200A starting setting and left it there. :/

Took off the alternator to get it tested. Tested good, they pulled the new alternator off the shelf, it tested bad.
Maybe I should replace the battery? it is an 09 battery.
Battv before start 12.3v
Battv while running 11.6v
Battv after dies 12.2-12.3v


Even though I fixed the vacuum leaks still no go.
With IAC disconnected or connected ( going to run putting my new on on see if it responds to anything)
IACv plug gets 12v. The IAC never seems to cone on though.
Start up>1200-1300rpm>then settles down to 700-900rpm> starts to progressively oscillate> dies.

Took out my gauge cluster, couldn't see any evidence to why my tach and 1ea gauge light inop. Going to try bench testing or just buy one for 50$


I'm really hoping my writing harness isn't messed up I want the car back on the road before October 12 for FL2K13.

Anyone have any input?

if voltage is less than battery during running, the alternator is not working.

That's what I said but their machine says otherwise.

fuck their machine.

Indubitably, especially after my test.

I have an WestCo battery coming my way to replace my, 7-8 times cranked to death, 09/09 dated battery.


This gets weird.
My fuel cells are locked at 67. AFR's on my gauge reading about 15-14. On the datalog is just plan crazy oscilation (output from my AFR gauge controller reads perfectly stable) so I'm guessing something is still not right in my MS2pnp. I may just need to get an Enhanced MS3 like I wanted to.

So anyway
Hooked my miata battery to my trucks alt while running, car started/idled seemingly fine still, needs that initial TP to keep it alive though.

Enabled the IACv, no change in idle. The valve is brand new. It's getting it's 12v.

What kind of demon sorcery is this?

You and 18psi are making me really nervous about installing my MS3 tomorrow. Though at least 18psi's troubles were E85 related.

I'll be starting my MS3x tomorrow. Although with the amount of shit that has to work right the first time, I think idle will be my least issue.

Ha yeah mine should just be PnP + solder in the GM IAT and install wideband. I won't even be removing the MAF because I stupidly only ordered 1 2.75" joiner from Silicone Intakes. So that will happen sometime next week.

I wish yalls installs/start up/tunes a lot smoother then mine.
Just tested pulling the battery termials, car died.
Going to try to see if I can pick up an alternator. I know their are threads but what are some better direct replacements?

New alternator = no fix
Still shit idle/run with BattV dropping to 10.9v at one point.

:vash2:


I sent an email to DIYAutotune as my ECU is still under warranty.
I looked deeper into this problem and compared past (before sending the ECU off to be repaired) and current/right after I got the ECU back and the problem with battV/charging came about then.

I'm currently very wearisome with dealing with this issue. I hope some sort of fix comes about with DIYautotune. Maybe a new ECU unit? maybe an upgrade (doubt this)? or maybe a refund so I can just put in to acquire the awesome of enhanced MS3.
Time will tell.

I didn't read everything, but doesn't your alternator require an external field input? And if so, does your MS provide it?

Aye, the MS2pnp for 99-00 has everything to control the NB's alternator.
You may not of read but this ECU has worked (quite well at that) on this motor before (non-build though). So I know it can handle the alternator.

By external field input you mean the 2 wire plug on the alt?

Yupp. It comes from contact 1O on the 22 pin connector. Color is grey/red. If that doesn't read any voltage, your alternator won't do anything. Not sure what the voltage should be. Joe Perez is one of the people who know this stuff. Search his old threads if you need the voltage.

Still Oscillating
 

Thanks to the lovely support of DIYautotune, I received a new(ish) MS2pnp today. Put it in place of my old one, loaded my tune, double checked some things, and installed my GM IAT sensor.
Fired her up.
Holy shit it's charging the battery now, and seems to be controlling my IAC valve too. I had it set to inverted idled and died/ set it to normal cranked up and the RPM's just kept raising. So I know it works now.

I'm still having my oscillating idle and AFR problem though.
Does anyone know anyone in the Tampa area that'll do wiring? I want my inputs and AFR gauge wiring redone. (As I'm doubting what I did)
I finally have time to work on the car though, hopefully everything will be good to be good to go by OCT12 for FL2K13. Probably not though.

I also had to change my ignition setting to single wheel missing tooth and not duel wheel missing tooth for it to idle and not die.

Attached is the final tune and datalogs.

Since I have time now, I'm thinking of removing the ID1000's and putting the stock MSM injectors back in. Correct troubleshooting path?

So, could the VTCS butterflies in my intake cause oscillating idle? As in they are moving around restricting flow and what not.

So, I swapped the stock injectors and disconnected the vtcs vacuum line. I got it to actually idle last night. it wasn't too bad, a little high. it also was hitting a second limiter/ launch control type thing at around 4500-5000 for a split second of popping ( but AFRS looking good)
then would climb like normal but I would let off the accelerator by this time as I was scared.

I go to start it today.
Starts and dies, starts and dies, abd fir the life of me I couldn't figure it why. I had a mini panic/ stress attack si here I am drinking run/ coke posing about it.

$8k buy the car.
or I need someone to give it to that knows what's they are doing.

I had my ID1000s tested today by Boost Labs, they are perfect, they actually said they are the closest pair they've seen cone in. So the injectors are great.
I talked to them about the EFR 7163 too :) , he said he can get it before full race does. I all have to talk to south east power (matt) it's a mostly diesel shop , they are a distributor fir Borg Warner and I've had many recommendations to talk to him.

I adjusted ASE, still dies.
If I just keep blipping the throttle the car stays alive but will not idle and dies.

Anyone? Or am I just talking to myself?

I'm able to help Monday after work if you are interested. My engine is out and mostly torn down. Mostly.

I'll see about getting a trailer, I dunno how Monday it's looking though.
PM Some contact info? I can help with your engine as well.

No trailer necessary. I meant I would come to you. PM your phone and I'll call you during the day tomorrow. Tell me what part of town you are in, too.

What a guy!
Hopefully it isn't to far for you, south Tampa and all.

You have calibrated your TPS, right?

Yes sir, multiple times.

And you verified your timing with a light?

Yes sir, awhile back but I did. With the missing tooth setup is really hard to have timing off.
I originally had it set missing tooth at 80° w/ fixed timing @ 10° but the light showed TDC. changed missing tooth to 70° light showed 10°. Haven't touched it since ( bruising going from fixed to table)

This may sound silly, but, where is your vacuum pickup for your MAP sensor?

If it is close to the TB, laminar flow will cause very erratic MAP readings, and pretty much everything will be unstable. You need to use the nipple at the far end of the manifold.

Also, have you tried setting your idle with the IAC unplugged? (IAC defaults to "closed" if it is unplugged). You need to to that with a warm engine.

I am getting MAP reading from an aft nipple.

Sixshooter came by today to try and help out. No progress on idle problem but he asked me to upload my tune file and the datalog we did.

What MAP sensor does the MS2 have? What does TS think it has? Try a different setting.

4 bar map sensor, I do believe.
I'm not sure what it's called, I'll give it a look though.

MAP sensor is correct, I tired today and it actually kinda somewhat held RPM..
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1382135139

So I looked at my old logs from almost a year ago when the car actually ran and I noticed something. But I can't seem to figure out what it is or what it's for.
-Render Non Interrupt Data- option in MLV..
Before when car was running:
(rendering option enabled or disabled it shows the same)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1382208767

Now:
Disabled
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1382208767

Enabled
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1382208767

Could anyone shed some light on this option?

Nevermind I guess.

Richened my VE like DIY asked(around 50-52 in idle range),
tightened my intake manifold to the head,
double checked vacuum lines,
temp installed fuel pressure gauge in place of cut line.

Still won't idle but does seem like it "tries".
Won't hold idle unless I'm +16% TPS but even then it's a give it take if it's going to or not. I did however actually get it to respond to varying RPMS and holding. Sounded horrible so I stopped.

Fuel pressure is great, 62psi. even though the gauge was leaking a bit (needed to put thread sealant in it)


So now that I've been basically taking to myself for almost a month.. does anyone have ANYTHING?

I was looking into the cam phasing with the 36-1 with single cam tooth setup, DIY says 120° is the optimal point when my cam tooth should align with the sensor(according to their guide about it)
from my composite logs and knowing my missing tooth is 70° BTDC, I can't tell if my cam tooth aligns with TDC or if it's already past the sensor at TDC since on the NB it's covered with my valve cover..
but judging by another person's post about their 36-1 trigger wheel and grind off their CAS until they had the smallest tooth. my trigger is too soon since his was just a little before his missing tooth.

DIY guide on 36-1 w/ Single cam tooth- http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Dual.htm

Other MT.net Thread with persons composite log I talked about: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/fitted-36-1-trigger-wheel-firing-2-cylinders-68724/

are you using a wideband? i wouldn't expect it to idle well with that sort of AFR log...

It doesn't idle. I tried to help out but couldn't figure out why it wouldn't stay running.

It didn't help that I was unfamiliar with the MS2 idle settings. I was hoping there would be something in the log or msq that would stand out.

halp!

Forget idle settings.
Just adjust the throttle to be slightly open and you should be able to run at 1500 rpm or so. Maybe it's 2000, but who cares. Then check all your settings: AFR, vacuum and timing (use a timing light) above all.
If AFRs read OK and timing reads OK, but it won't run, maybe an injector is busted. Or a spark plug, or the cams are off...

And turn off the EGO and all other corrections!

I use Prosport Evo gauges. the gauge reads steady compared to the logs, The signal the MS receives is smooth too but oscillate in TS.




AFRs are iffy,
Timing was spot on last I checked,
I had the injectors flow tested by boost labs (they're perfect) and nothing seemed bad when I installed them,
Spark plug were just changed actually I can check their condition tho,
Cams, The builder that put them in guaranteed they are right. (I do believe I have a picture of them at TDC in my fail build thread)

I'm thinking of swapping the stock crank wheel in and stock intake cam wheel(non ground down) to see if my ignition settings have to do with it or if the sequential settings are wrong and causing everything. (the car did run perfectly fine before on stock system and sequential injection) I haven't changed any settings fit sequential.

We tried holding the throttle open but it wouldn't stay running unless you pedaled it, like it needed the accel enrichment or the MAP was reading wrong.

How sure are you about this? The oscillations in your log seem very fast. Faster than what a gauge -no matter if it's in the dash or in MS- can show. TS displays the same signal on the screen that it is writing to the log.
So I'm pretty your signal is oscillating. My guess would be that it's caused by some correction. Most likely EGO.
Turn all corrections off and try again.

He was patting the throttle quickly during the log to keep it running, too.

Disable all corrections and enrichments.
Add more fuel. Like 25% more.
Mark all cells in the VE table and click on multiply. Enter 1.25.
Try again.

Yes sir I'll give multiplying them, just seems weird VE starting at 50.
EGO and all other corrections are already disabled.

I've tested the AFR signal going into the MS (at the he D15 plug) and it doesn't oscillate like shown. The logged oscillation has happened with 2 different and "New or refurbished/ repaired" MS2PNP's
I even used pin 15(ecu ground) to ground the AFR gauge/controller and chassis together, it seemed to lessen the "ignition on but engine not running" oscillation it had.

I'm starting to fear that in the, 9 months now, the cars been sitting and when someone attacked a battery charger set for cranking to my battery while I loaded firmware and double checked everything when the motor was going to get it's first start,
it blew my laptop charger,
the cigarette lighter plug,
one of the LED bulbs in my dash went it, my tach didn't work (replaced LED bulbs with better ones and gauge cluster works),
and took out the AFR signal component in my first MS2pnp alonging with the charging circuit and idle circuits
that the cars harness got fucked and now it's messing with my MS. But all my fuses are fine.

What's weird about it? This is my idle table, stock '99 with stock injectors. Idles well in the mid 14s.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1382649221

oh shit, my map before always idled at 36-42ish range. I thought that was the norm testing 25% increase in ve now

Yeah I just checked because I was curious, and Reverant's basemap had the idle cells in at 60, so I'm guessing my low-50s is closer than your 36-42. Though of course VE is dependent on req_fuel so you could have had your req_fuel high enough that it idled fine at 36-42.

Idle cells from 35 to 65..
Holy. shit.
it idles!
it struggles trying to catch the RPMs if you rev it up a bit. but I live the fact it idles.
it seems to lose sync at high idle. buzzer comes on and what not, i have a video I'll post(if you have my Facebook l posted a video). I also gotta get a datalog if things, my laptop died.

What's the wideband say at 65? The 60 that the basemap had made me idle in like the 11s I think.

10.5-10.8 at cranking.
With WUE and ASE I idle at 14.3 ish but after ASE it seems to go to 15-16 is this weird? Nuge are your injectors ID1000s?
Other then that. My videos tell it better.

Cell phone video: (funnier)

GoPro Video:

Mine are stock 240cc or whatever they are. Yeah it was in the 16s idling, add more fuel. If it still dies at 13 or 14 when coming back into idle (after revving) I think you adjust the dashpot adder.

I ended up with 67-70 in idle cells.

I actually went driving around. There isn't any problem now besides I can't blip the throttle to down shift. I have to hold TPS for a bit. And when I engine brake it goes completely lean ( over run fuel cut is off) my cells in the engine brake area are like 88-90 something. over all it was a good drive.

HOW EVER.
I forgot my wallet so I went back home to fetch it. Got fucking pulled over right in front of my place. Though I was going a bit over the speed limit(I think Speedo doesn't work) probably 30-33mph in a retarded 25mph zone. I didn't get a ticket for that.. he gave me a citation for not having my license.. while I wad on my way to GET my license. RIGHT THERE.. 50ft and a door and I would if had it.. but NOOOO.


Sorry for the rant. I just don't wanna make the trip to downtown Tampa to part like 5-8$ tu show them my license. Also having to explain it to my supervision (military life yo)
Also I discovered my front crank seal leaks like a bitch when the engine is running :(

So my problems are as lies, AFR signal, leaking crank front crank seal, and tune.

Shall I start another thread on my AFR signal problem? I think its an internal MS issue though.

Sorry, I almost forgot!
Thank you everyone for your time in helping me with my setup, I greatly appreciate your time and vast knowledge.
Special thanks to sixshooter traveling down here to me during his busy day to give me a hand.