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Old 08-29-2014, 11:23 PM   #1
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Default Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x

What I have done:

Installed LC-2 w/ DB gauge last week, working great so far. Downloaded and paid for TunerStudio, got familiar with it.

Wired in IAT, removed MAF, ran vacuum line, soldered brown wire from LC-2 to the O2 input pink wire on the MS harness, downloaded COM drivers, connected to the MS, Started new project, set the properties, got the TPS, CLT, and IAT calibrated. Also chose LC-1/LC-2 in the "calibrate AFR table" menu. This where I start to have problems...

#1 My AFR gauge reads stable high 14's in the car, but reads 8-9 on the TS gauge. I even tried to manually enter the configuration by using .23v-7.35:1 and 5v-22.39:1, still same result.

#2 Attempting to set base timing. Car starts (a little rough, but starts and ran smooth, idles at 1100 tho) Went to ign settings/ignition options, set the "fixed advanced" to "fixed timing" and went to go check the timing marks. I have the FAB9 COP kit so I put on of my old ignition wires between the spark plug and the cop on cyl#1, and put the timing light clamp on there. When I checked the timing marks, they were pretty much at 11-12 o clock. If I adjust the trigger angle say up to 15 (default was 5.5), I could get the marks closer but still far away from where they are supposed to be, and it would start misfiring (obviously). The timing light has an adjustment for the advance, and if I crank it up off the scale (max is 60*, it looks like it would be close to 75* where the **** maxes out) I can get the timing marks pretty close to where they are supposed to be, but just not quite.

My theories: I know this thing had a supercharger on it at one point, and I can see marks on the crankshaft nut as if it has been removed before. Can it be possible that the pulley is off 90*? I haven't taken this pulley off before, but it looks like there are also 4 bolts that hold it on, wouldn't that mean there could be 4 different positions to put the crank pulley on? 15* trigger angle + ~75* adjustment on the gun = ~90* = close to the marks, that's what get's me wondering about the pulley...

or

Can the COP kit be causing something to go on? If I clamp the timing light on the rigged spark plug wire OR the green trigger wire from the igniter to the COP, I get different readings from each other as to where the timing marks are. But I did so much switching around and trying different things, I may be confused/incorrect about this tho... The "number of coils" under ignition options is default to wasted spark. Leave that there or switch to wasted COP? I didn't see any difference when I tried it tho.

And for the AFR readings, I have no idea what's going on here. How could TS be seeing such low AFR's but be running fine according to the DB gauge?

Some pics:

What I got from Brain


The green wire that goes to the COP on #1


Gauge in car, works great


IAT


Timing gun adjustments


Can provide more pics if needed if they will help.

I've been racking my brain to the point of confusion and had to put it down for the night, hoping I can get some ideas here... Also contacted Brain, awaiting response.

Thanks

Andy
Attached Thumbnails
Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x-itz4wqsl.jpg   Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x-mzsug4ll.jpg   Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x-epcofttl.jpg   Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x-va1r54ul.jpg   Base timing and AFR issues, new MS3x-s6xgo9bl.jpg  

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Old 08-30-2014, 12:00 AM   #2
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FWIW, I checked the timing when I had the stock ecu still in and it didn't look right either. From what i remember, timing was like 3 of 4 degrees at idle according to my Torque app, and the marks were nowhere near there either. I didn't have a scanner to turn on test mode to set a fixed degree of timing, but I feel I should have at least been in the ball park compared to what the OBD was saying...
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:24 PM   #3
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timing gun should be set to 0, actually that gun may never work correctly if you cant set it to 2-cycle mode (since wasted spark).

certain you inputted the correct output (analog 2) to the pink wbo2 input wire on the harness?

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Old 08-30-2014, 01:01 PM   #4
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I figured that it should be at 0, with it at 0, the timing marks are way out in left field.

And the harness has 4 leads: ebc, O2, and spark c and d. I wired it to the pink O2 lead. I did leave the stock O2 sensor in place and plugged in, could that interfere?
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:42 PM   #5
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I wonder if I drop the dipstick in to the spark hole, turn the engine by hand and stop on TDC, then check and see where the timing marks are, I could verify that the marks are in the right spot. Maybe the outer belt pulley has walked and that's why nothing lines up? I have read some cases of that happening.
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Old 08-30-2014, 05:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech5700 View Post
I did leave the stock O2 sensor in place and plugged in, could that interfere?
shouldn't matter. what i meant was, did you use the yellow or brown wire from the lc1/2?
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech5700 View Post
I wonder if I drop the dipstick in to the spark hole, turn the engine by hand and stop on TDC, then check and see where the timing marks are, I could verify that the marks are in the right spot. Maybe the outer belt pulley has walked and that's why nothing lines up? I have read some cases of that happening.
Yes, see this all too often.
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
shouldn't matter. what i meant was, did you use the yellow or brown wire from the lc1/2?
soldered brown wire from LC-2 to the O2 input pink wire on the MS harness. The yellow LC2 wire is going to the gauge.
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:09 AM   #9
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Update:

Found TDC on cyl #1: put a screwdriver down the plug hole and turned crank till I found TDC. Looked at timing marks and sure enough, they were exactly where they were when checking with timing light last night. Used a paint pen and made my own timing marks where they should be. Continued on to the trigger angle adjustment and got it all lined up (took 9 degrees, default was 5.5) The pulley must have walked a few degrees. Gonna have to change that thing out before a complete failure.

Next, looked in to the AFR funky readings in TS. Found LC2 manual and read a note about the outputs:

"Factory Programmed Defaults:
Analog Output 1 is programmed to output between 0 V for an AFR of 7.35
(gasoline) and 5.0V for an AFR of 22.39. Analog Output 2 is 1.1 V for an
AFR of 14 and .1 V for an AFR of 15."

Output one is to the DB gauge which reads fine, but output 2 (brown wire) goes to the MS harness, and is only seeing .1 to 1.1V. Hence the pig rich readings on TS.

Found a Serial to USB adapter @ Best Buy for $11, got home and hooked it to the LC2 data connection, had to install drivers for the adapter, then was able to change the values to match output 1 in LM Programmer.

Turned on VEAL and went for a 1.5 hour cruise of mixed driving. Noticed a huge difference from beginning to end in stability under different conditions.

Starting still needs some work. Not sure what else to adjust here, but it cranks a little longer than normal and struggles to start. When it does start it runs smooth.

That is all for today. Will run VEAL more on the way to work tomorrow!

Tried to attach Log and tune, but said I'm missing a security token...
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