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Few more logs labeled. I posted the two boring ones where I'm going to be hunting for the engine state settings. I think they're labeled appropriately. I think I might have tried to mark them but may not have been successful. Figured you might want to mess around in there Aidan. I'm going to give them a look in a bit and see if I can try to pull the right values out of it and hopefully you can tell me if I'm right or nuts! (pretty please?)
Of note, the two idle issue logs. Idle drops low which didn't happen before. This only happens when stationary. I'm thinking that I should raise the lowest idle air valve setting since it might be going down too much. It was colder last night (36ish) so that might affect things? And lastly, there's a lot of the pull.
Get your engine states tuned before messing with your idle settings. My idle went to crap until I got my engine states tuned (or at least started to be tuned). Mine idles well now.
Looking forward to seeing your engine states to compare to mine because they still make no sense to me.
Get your engine states tuned before messing with your idle settings. My idle went to crap until I got my engine states tuned (or at least started to be tuned). Mine idles well now.
Looking forward to seeing your engine states to compare to mine because they still make no sense to me.
Hoping to figure out a few things with the logs above and seeing how things react on the long way home!
1.4.1 didnt have engine states. They are the backbone of the tune. Used for cl idle, idle ve, idle timing, overrun, etc.
Here is my best guess on how to tune engine states. Waiting on confirmation from Ken. And tuning them myself.
Fast acceleration threshold: Some low gear, step on the throttle. Pick the lowest(?) RPMdot while accelerating. Set the fast acceleration threshold just below that?
Slow acceleration threshold: Datalog idle and see what the highest RPMdot is during idle. Add and remove loads to get rpm changes. Set to just above the highest RPMdot at idle
Fast deceleration threshold: Rev high in neutral and let it drop back to idle. Set it slightly above the highest RPMdot from that test.
Slow deceleration threshold: Same as Slow acceleration threshold, but with negative RPMdot
TPS: Pretty self explanatory, value when tps is closed, and when full throttle
Overrun Map Threshold: Set as high as possible, I usually use a MAP value just under the lowest MAP I see on idle.
Alright, here goes:
Data and questions below!
Fast acceleration threshold: Some low gear, step on the throttle. Pick the lowest(?) RPMdot while accelerating. Set the fast acceleration threshold just below that? I think I got like 290 here? Setting it to 250. One of the runs didn't make sense because it gave me an rpm dot of 60 and 0. I think something cut out.
Slow acceleration threshold: Datalog idle and see what the highest RPMdot is during idle. Add and remove loads to get rpm changes. Set to just above the highest RPMdot at idle Highest RPMdot during idle seems to be 50. I'll go with 75 here for now.
Fast deceleration threshold: Rev high in neutral and let it drop back to idle. Set it slightly above the highest RPMdot from that test. When you say set it slightly above the highest RPMdot, I'm guessing that you mean the most negative, right? And when you say above, do you mean set it more negative or more positive. I got -2500 for my max rpm dot during Idle decel (reved up to 6.5 then let it slide down).
I'm putting it to -2450 for now since that's how I'm interpreting what you wrote.
Slow deceleration threshold: Same as Slow acceleration threshold, but with negative RPMdot So -75 should make sense here? That's what I'm picking for now.
TPS: Pretty self explanatory, value when tps is closed, and when full throttle
Overrun Map Threshold: Set as high as possible, I usually use a MAP value just under the lowest MAP I see on idle. Min MAP I saw on idle was 31.80 (range: 31.8-33.6). Going with 30 for now. There was one log where I saw something in the mid 20's but that was during some erratic behavior. It's in the idle drop log I have above.
@dr_boone
How does this compare to what you found? Keep in mind that I'm still NA so some of the accel stuff is likely off if you're FI.
Side note: Does it make any sense to auto tune warm up enrichment?
Last edited by ridethecliche; 04-20-2017 at 03:08 AM.
Things ran pretty good! Idle still seems to droop down a bit and startup is a bit iffy. Like... the battery light flashes off and the belts start squealing for the first minute or so. I'm guessing it's a voltage thing with the alternator...
Attaching a log post making engine state tuning. Drive-ability is very good. Idle still needs some work. I'm attaching an idle log where the car goes down just a little too much in the rev range but recovers every time. Much better than yesterday though! I'm going to try to adjust the idle valve lower value up a point or two so it doesn't come down as much. It doesn't make any sense to give it permission to come down to 650 rpm...
I don't have my laptop with me I'll check at lunch. I started with my map in the low 30's and it would go into a fuel cut situation at idle that was interesting. I thing mine is at 19 right now. I'll post mine later to see if they make sense to anyone.
if I idled at 33kPa, I'd use an overrun map of something like 27-28kPa.
basically, when you lift, you pull major vacuum -- much greater than your idle load. anything above that threshold will not engage idle, but if you hit the clutch and the load increases, it needs to know youre going back to idle, soon enough that it can transition off overrun and start injecting fuel again and open the valve (based on initial values and dashpot setting) and engage idle.
I' I'm going to try to adjust the idle valve lower value up a point or two so it doesn't come down as much.
tune you initial values table... That's the point of it. What idle duty do you want to open the valve up to.
I' I'm going to try to adjust the idle valve lower value up a point or two so it doesn't come down as much.
Don't do this, you didn't need to adjust the upper value, you just needed to adjust the I initial values. Now you need to make sure everything else about your idle is good. Is your PID algorithm good, does your timing move a bunch at idle?
Wait, you all mean that I should adjust the setting that fixed things last time instead of messing with a totally arbitrary one?
Madness!
Need to check PID. I haven't made any changes to that at all. I'll do that when I'm sitting in the car warmed up today. I'll look at a log later to see what it's doing to timing.
s there a 'target idle rpm' setting in 1.5 as well or is it all derived from engine states and idle valve settings? It's the idle rpm CLT temp target graph right?
Last edited by ridethecliche; 04-20-2017 at 12:20 PM.
sonofthehill, you're telling him to adjust I, but did you look at the log? the idle valve isn't moving.
why adjust PID settings that aren't the problem. When I look at that log, what I think will help the problem is stabilizing the fueling.
I did raise up the Idle valve values in the idle table up just a bit across the board. It's also possible that VEAL had messed with idle tuning. I set it up last night to stop messing with anything under 1200 rpm. I'll add a bit more fuel to idle and see what happens.
I'm still on my first tank of gas, but I feel like the car has been drinking a lot more kool aid lately. It might have to do with the tuning process. I'm definitely flooring it a lot more than I would otherwise so I can light up the right cells. I've been saving tunes errryday so I can look back at how things were going yesterday. I set up the clt based rev limiter last night too haha.
Brain, do you have an opinion on setting alternator control so it stops charging during WOT? Recipe for disaster or 'sure whatever'?
Full disclosure: I have no Idea what I'm doing.....Just trying to learn like everyone else. Don't copy what I do.
My numbers are very close to the same as yours except fast acceleration. in low gear when I floor it the RPMdot is 770'ish then goes to 4980 when is blows the tires off. I'm going with 700 (because that seems reasonable to me) for now and I bumped my slow accel & decel to +100/-100 to keep it in the idle state when I had it at 50 it would change states while idling.
Full disclosure: I have no Idea what I'm doing.....Just trying to learn like everyone else. Don't copy what I do.
My numbers are very close to the same as yours except fast acceleration. in low gear when I floor it the RPMdot is 770'ish then goes to 4980 when is blows the tires off. I'm going with 700 (because that seems reasonable to me) for now and I bumped my slow accel & decel to +100/-100 to keep it in the idle state when I had it at 50 it would change states while idling.
You're boosted though, right? I'm still NA which could explain the RPM dot in low gear. I think I did mine in second. I might try to do it in first to see what that's like. I think second is probably the right gear for the test though, no? 3rd seems too high and first seems too low, but then again 1st is probably most representative of the true max.
I only have a few miles on mine since trying to tune the engine states. My Idle is back to normal and it stays in the idle state while idling. I'll call that a win for today. I don't know what the fast accel is for the instruction said lowest gear??? I'll study that more and continue from there.
Car was freaking out a bit at startup and so I reverted to an older log. Basically from looking at what was going on, I think I have slow accel and decel set too low because it keeps oscillating between idle, slow decel, and slow accel and gets into this vicious cycle where it won't settle. Looks exactly like what Dr. Boone is describing above.
I raised and lowered the slow acceleration and deceleration states respectively to make the issue go away and it comes right back if I turn on the AC. I decided to test it in idle to see what would happen.
It seems to me that it tries to correct too fast and ends up unsettling things, which is why I end up in a weird oscillation triggering everything. I think the PID delay is set to 1 right now, so I think I'm going to move that up to 3-5 and I think I'm going to try to bring PID down because it seems like it's trying to fix idle too aggressively and overcompensating. My AFR's during this time period are between 13.5-15.5. I'm looking through a log right now and trying to smooth out the fueling there. Another thing I noticed is that when it oscillates, sometimes it runs into a cell outside of the idle timing range in the AC log and that causes it to freak out too.
I think there's a fueling issue too because I know I'm supposed to be idling at just about 14.7 so I'll try to smooth those cells up. Any input would be appreciated. The car stalled a couple of times today and it hadn't done that yet :/ I know this is to be expected, but it was definitely frustrating having the engine state page open and watching the car bounce between idle and the slow accel/decel states without settling.
Attaching tune with log of AC weirdness.
Edit: Ugh, I can't save marks that I add on MLV? It won't save even if I export the file. Is there a way to do this?
In fairness, I have not looked at his logs or tune. Just going by what he is saying. I will agree that Brain's base tune is pretty good and his MS's are solid. It just sounds like cliche has fiddled with all kinds of random stuff. I am suggesting that he analyze his logs and adjust accordingly.
04-19-2017, 09:46 PM
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