General MS help please
 

I admit, I need some hand holding here..

Without writing a 5000 word introduction, I'll just cut to the chase:

I know a great deal about cars, mechanical concepts, engine diagnostics, troubleshooting, materials, etc but I know very little nothing about MS. Period.
And, I know Reverant is incredibly busy, and I just do not want to pester him.

So, here we go..

99 with a SC, etc.. I have been running on powercards so far.
I have decided to go with MS and bugged and pestered Dimitris till he sent me one. The thing is sitting on a shelf behind my desk as we speak.

I have no problem installing the MS, or the brand new 650cc FIC injectors.

The problem is, I honestly do not know how to get into, or initiate the MS "ceremonies" once I install everything and button the car up.

I know it will idle and even run to the hospital if I am in a dire emergency.
But, beyond that, what do I do first?

Dimitris sent me some instructions, and the first paragraph goes
"Download TunerStudio from tunerstudio.com and install. Forget anything you
may have read about MegaTune or EasyTherm, it will not work with this ECU."

Great.

Now, I would like to give you guys an example at this point:
English is my second language. There was a day when I only spoke Turkish, and were I to pick up a copy of "War and Peace" in English in those days, it would just look like gibberish to me.
Years passed, I picked up a few words here, a couple of rules there, and now, I am in a much different place.

Same goes with MS. So far, I have had nothing to do with autotune, VE tables, enrichment percentages.. So I can't make heads or tails of any of this as we speak.

I am not an idiot, in fact I happen to have a modest IQ level of 146. So, yes, I can learn - if I can just get my head into this thing somehow.

And, I am not a freeloader by any stretch of the imagination. I have been a member here for some time now, and I always have strived to contribute through what I post here. I am sure you guys understand where I am coming from with all this.

Dimitris was kind enough to provide me with a starting setup. I know it needs to be refined.

So, please help me figure out how I should proceed.
You could take your time to post a few hints, "do this and avoid that" sort of guidelines, or maybe point me in the right direction by posting links.

I have been reading MS related stuff, but I keep getting lost in too much/irrelevant/inapplicable/outdated/incompatible information.

And, thank you for your understanding...

Plug it in.

Plug in laptop. Start Tunerstudio. Turn car to On, do not turn to Start.

Try to connect laptop to MS via Tunerstudio. See if you can. If you can, and everything reads like it should (I.e., temperature sensors), try to start the car.

If it starts, read up on autotune via Tunerstudio. If it doesn't, come here to pester Brainy/Reverant/et al.

Should I register Tunerstudio only, or get the combo deal with MegaLogViewer. Would I neeed MLW as well?

In hindsight, I wish I would have purchased the combo deal.

It's not not necessary, no. But it makes life a lot easier.

GTFO - you are overqualified for this board... :rofl:

No honest - nice thing with the DIYPNP is you can try it on the bench. As I know Dimitris - he will surely already have flashed a firmware and base tune on the DIYPNP. So just get a poweradaptor and an USb to serial cable - and try to get this thing connected to your computer via Tuner Studio. (Oh - buy the combo package - both programs are well worth their money)

Then just sneek around all the settings in Tuner Studio an open up:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html#ms2

After you did this - things should be much more clear. You will still have a quadrillion of questions but we get to that specific questions later.
I am sure that Dimitris will help you out with most of your questions - he is a great guy to deal with!

Well, the first thing to do is to follow my instructions to the point where the car starts and idles. 95% of the non-fuel settings will already be dialed in to the point where you will not have to mess with them, spark advance tables included.

Then autotune, that is pretty much it. So yes, purchase TunerStudio, MLV is optional.

Well, it runs...

I just spent three days installing Reverant's MS.

I redid the entire wiring harness, fiddled with water injection, replaced all fuel lines along with the injectors, did a bunch of other work - like hardwiring an inverter/charger for the laptop - and generally took my time.

Car started on first crank once I primed the fuel lines.

There were a couple of minor problems, and Dimitris was very helpful to overcome those.

Then I drove the car like a grandma for about an hour, and autotuned the whole time, staying out of boost.

I do have questions tho...

First and foremost, when I opened VE analyzer, I had two of everything: 2 "Fuel VE Table 1", 2 "Fuel VE Table 2" (all four of them accessible) and a grayed out "Fuel VE Table 3"...
I honestly did not know what to do, and autotuned both Fuel VE Table 1 options. They had different parameters.

I turned the car off at one point, and when I started everything back up, those VE Fuel tables were gone. All I can see now is "Fuel VE Table1" and "Fuel VE Table 3". The rest is grayed out. I did nothing, except for hitting burn and closing the program and turning the car off for this thing to happen.

The car runs different. Definitely different. It is livelier, and takes less throttle input along very familiar roads compared to before. I can tell even at this stage.

I noticed a few things:

Knock control is disabled. Should I enable that?

Idle speed goes up to about 1130 RPM and stays there sometimes. Should I be worried?

I do not have decel fuel cut. AFR stays at around 14-15 and slowly goes to high 16s in extended decel. Is this intended, or do I have a setting off for that?

Also, I noticed boost control feature is enabled. Should I just turn that off since I have a SC?

Lastly, I am attaching my msq. Would you guys please comment on that in terms I would be able understand?

Thanks!

May I ask what SC you have? I'm about to attempt my install of MSPnP this weekend, and I'm worried I'll screw something up.

Glad I don't have a language barrier as well, or I'd be lost.

I have a hotside MP62, TDR IC, dual throttle, port water injection, 650cc injectors, oversize fuel rail, AFPR and COPs.
Also, I installed the IAT sensor on the IC outlet, in front of the radiator to prevent heatsoak issues.

Give yourself plenty of time, and go over every connection. Our cars are getting long in the tooth.

Brain, Rev, anyone?

You've got mail.

We have threads on this and Reverant gives you everything set-up almost pefectly, I was really impressed.

1. Read Performance Fuel Injection Systems
2. Follow the install instructions
3. Calibrate gauges and sensors
4. Turn off-enrichments and EGO correction
5. Idle the car
6. Manually tune the fuel table to make the car drivable
7. Fine-tune PID idle
8. Let VEAL do more tuning for you
9. Start tuning enrichments and get them close
10. Manually fine-tune the fuel table
11. Turn on EGO-correction
12. Fine tune enrichments and obsess over little things
13. Dyno tune
14. Profit.

Hi everyone, i'm a noob sorry to jack your thread hope you don't mind but can anyone tell me where can i read about road tune MSPNP. what to do to manually tune the fuel table to make car drivable?

There is very good progress, and some weirdness going on.

I am religiously autotuning the car trying to hit as many cells as I can once I feel safe in the most visited cells.
However, after a 20-25 minute session last night, I pulled over to burn the changes to the controller.
All went well, the car was running perfectly, but it stumbled and died once I hit burn.

I cycled the key and fired up the car, and immediately noticed it was running lean. Waaay too lean.

I quickly started a datalog, and started driving as gentle as possible.
My initial reaction was a malfunctioning sensor, but it is practically brand new.
The car was running like crap, with AFR at 18 to 19.
Blipping the throttle did not help at all.
I nursed the car to a gas station to check things over in a well lit place. No major gas leaks, no disconnected anything.
Then I thought of a way to check the sensor, and removed the vacuum line to the MS with the car idling.
Sure enough, AFR readings started dipping immediately. Went as low as 9 something.
That was proof that the WB sensor had not crapped out.

I turned off the car and cycled the key a few times, to no avail.

I said fcuk it, and started the car back up (still ran at 18-19 AFR) and hit autotune.
Bingo.. Started correcting itself immediately.

Got back on the road and autotuned for another half hour or so.
Heard some pinging for the first time in a couple years, but AFRs came down to proper levels in as many cells as I could "visit" without risking the engine.

Still not as good as it was before the incident, but definitely recovering.

So, could you guys in the know please enlighten me as to what might have happened?

I datalogged like a madman, but the files are big. I could email them, but I guess they would be too big for me to post here (the largest one is about 4MB)

What do you guys think?

I think you need to keep tuning fuel since this is the easy part. I also think you should be happy you didn't join the EU.

Do you happen to have the datalogs of just before shuttind down and after restarting and going lean?

Unfortunately I do not have datalogs from before the "incident". I started datalogging immediately afterwards.

I have cranking issues.

Warm starts and restarts are OK.
If the car sits for an extended period I have to crank at least twice.
And, when it catches, sometimes it starts with a pop.

Fuel pump primes nicely. (The pop verifies there's fuel, anyway)
I have not touched any of the starting settings.

Should I mess with the settings at all? What would the recommended cranking settings be?

Sounds like too much fuel. What does cranking table look like?

Here ya go:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1337735636

Flooring the pedal - clearflood - does not help, tho.

Mine starts at 385 and goes fairly linearlly down to 100 at 235*f

Wouldn't that mean a whole lot more fuel?

I have 650s, btw.

So? Its in % of.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true. Good luck starting with 650cc EV14s and 100 at the highest temp

well he aint having any luck now :)

Cranking twice to start it from completely cold means that may have to add/remove 10-15% fuel, not 300-400%.

This is america, go big or go home!

Even at $4 per gallon?

especially then! You gotta spend money frivilously like Greece in order to make yourself a super power.

By being forced to buy US, German and French planes, submarines and boats by using money we are given as stimulus, right?

Hello.. It's over TEN BUCKS a gallon over here..

Also, Dimitris, there is a "cranking episode" in the log I sent you, as well.
(At the very beginning.)

In that log, the engine starts (RPM > 900) in 0.8 seconds.

OK, I bumped the cranking PW by about %15-20 across the board, and it made a visible difference.

I will add another %10 and try it one more time. (Now that the engine is cold again)

Oh, I never see the MIL coming on. Isn't it supposed to?

Very cool progress!

Increasing fuel by another %10 made it better.

And, increasing cranking advance from 6 to 12 degrees made it perfect!

Here is the final version of my cranking table:
(with 12 degrees of cranking advance)

You don't want that much advance during cranking as you may kick back the starter.

Hmm. The car seems to love it, tho.
I'll try it a couple more times before I bump it down.

If you don't have a problem with starting, then leave it as is. However, my experience with 10* of cranking advance is that it randomly kicks the starter back. It depends on your actual cranking speed etc. For example it happens a lot more if your battery is not 100% up to the job.

I understand completely.
I have quite a bit of hands on experience on engines, especially ignition and engine management systems, and bumping the advance has always proved a better starting scheme for me.
What I don't understand is the negative prop I have received for reporting that increased pw indeed helped starting the engine, a couple posts ago...

What negative prop?

Btw, do you actually have a check engine light on your gauge cluster?

post #33 in this thread - nevermind.

And, I must have had a major brainfart.. I looked at old pics of my gauge cluster (key on), I do not see a CEL there..
My bad.. Again.

Here:

https://www.miataturbo.net/picture.p...pictureid=1137

I was getting worried. Do know that your MS does have a working CEL output if you want to use it - pin 13 on the top connector.

I will definitely look into that.

I also have question on knock intensity for you, but I need to finish this speech I am working on before I dig into the laptop for datalogs..

lol he got one on post #33.

Why u make fun of me Brain?

i mean its kinda funny that someone gave u a neg on that post, im hoping it was a misclick.

We'll never know..

well i mean i could figure it all out, but omg effort.

Would this make it worth your while?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1337950523

What's intermittent here, ground or 12V?
Thanks..

Wow, I've never seen anything like this before. Did it start doing it after a while? I haven't seen this on any of your previous logs.

It's gotta be one or more grounds. Values would be hitting "0" if it was the power supply.

All values seem to be skyrocketing, some in sysnc, some on their own.

post on msextra. but im goign to say its a grounding issue, or something's shorting.

Found the culprit behind that weird log...

Today I checked everything and could not get the car to repeat the weirdness it had displayed.
Took a bunch of logs, did wiggle tests, did all I could, and no problems.

Then, I had an idea:
I plugged in my headphones, and the mic input to the laptop.
Bang. The problem came back in about 5 minutes.

Interference!

Over the past couple days, I built a couple of bolt on mics to listen for knock.
The idea was to plug the mic into the laptop via a two meter shielded cable, and use my headphones for listening.

I even downloaded a few programs (spectrum analyzers, etc) to play with the system.
Turns out, the setup interferes with MS big time.

Maybe I will use a second laptop (my wife's) to listen for knock.

Looks like the intereferce is on the serial port data received, not on the actual MS data, or else the engine would act really erratic.

Actually, it DID act funny. I had a bunch of high RPM misfires when this was happening.

I removed the microphone cable and the headphones altogether, and none of that is happening anymore.

On an unrelated note, I am making some progress..

Here is my AFR table:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1338507153

Ignition Advance:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1338507153

And this is what VE looks like so far:

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3724/70909216.png

I still have a an unintended table switching problem. The water in the tanks may be sloshing too hard under really heavy acceleration. (I test the car on an uphill section, to really load the engine, that may be making the sloshing worse)
I can see that by examining the ign advance in the logs.
Is there a quick way to check which table is active at any given time without taking my eyes off the road for too long?

On second thought, I will connect a LED to the water injection low water output to test my theory.
If that is not the case, I will have to make a manual switching system.

More stuff to play with!

And, here is how I installed the MS:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1338508174

I don't like the AFR table. What is your AFR at 130kPa? If it is more than 12...that's no good.

As for the table switching...there are indicators available in TS, called Fuel Tbl Sw and Spk Tbl Sw. They will go green when the switch is on.

If I don't do that it dips far too low (rich) as I go past the 0psi (100kpa) mark.