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Old 01-07-2008, 08:52 PM   #1
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Default Hardware is done. Now, the tables...

Finished the hardware assembly today- everything is done expect the EBC and WI drivers, but I wanted to fire it up and do some testing.

Loaded the msns-extra HiRez09a code with Scott's CLT values plugged in to easytherm. I let Megatune autogenerate a fuel and spark table for me so I have something to play with. The MS is running on the bench, and so far all the outputs I've scoped (IGN 1 and 2, INJ 1 and 2, and FIDLE) look good compared to the baseline traces I scoped on the car last month.

So now it's time to stick in some real-world VE and Spark tables. And I'm lost. I'd though there was a place where everyone was sharing maps (like we have in the EM forum) but I can't find anything. Could someone point me to where I might find some VEX files for an engine similar to mine that I can use as a baseline?
Specs:
1.6 ('92)
Greddy @ ~14PSI
440cc injectors, hi-impedance
WI / IC.
91 octane
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:15 PM   #2
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JP, your email addy is set to hidden. Send it to me in PM, and I'll mail you some files. Our setups are similar enough, though I do have higher octane fuel so you'll find the sparkmap a bit too aggressive.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:11 PM   #3
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If you go to mspnp.com and download their MSQ for your year car you can check out all the settings they have as well. Then you can export the .vex to use in your own MSQ if you like.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:14 PM   #4
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should have bought a PC-Pro, now you have to think and tune. could of had turn key.



but yeah. borrow a map from one of us and tweak it. but the diy map is a great place to start.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:22 AM   #5
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Ben hooked me up with his MSQ. I'll rip the fuel and spark maps out of that and use them to get started. The VE table was really the one that I was most hurting for. I can deal with spark in degrees, but arbitrary units like "VE" just freak me out.

Still a few pieces of hardware left before it's truly done. I got the "standard" build finished today, plus the mods for spark out, PWM Idle, and CMP/CKP in. Tomorrow I'm hoping to finish EBC, WI, fan, knock, baro, and table switch. Then we'll just about be ready to button it up and stick it in the car.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:47 AM   #6
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Are you planning on mounting baro like Abe did?
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
Are you planning on mounting baro like Abe did?
I see no reason why not. It's a nice, logical place for it to be- only one extra wire to run.

It's time for another reality check. I took a first pass at the pinout of the DB-37 connector this morning, and I seem to have used every available pin. Would you guys mind looking at this for me to see if I've missed anything?

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Old 01-08-2008, 04:46 PM   #8
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Looks complete to me. Gonna be fun closing up that DB37 connector housing with all the wiring. I hate them.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:22 AM   #9
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Just a word of warning, you'll want to run a later version of HighRes than that if you have a Map Daddy sensor (run at least 10d2). Not sure if you do or not, but you mentioned baro correction so I figured I would throw this out there in case...
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:00 AM   #10
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No Mapdaddy, just a second 250Kpa sensor. Good call, though. I'm not sure where the distribution I was using came from, but couldn't hurt to stay current.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #11
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Well, that took a while- 30AWG wire is our friend.

Finished all the mods and loaded 10d2. I haven't tested everything yet, but the basics (fuel and spark) seem to be working.

A gold star for anyone who can correctly identify which mod each of the wires goes to:






(With props to Abe for the good ideas concerning the 2nd MAP mount and the re-use of the Q16 hole, and to Ben for a nice-looking set of VE and spark maps)

And now on to the horrifyingly unpleasant task of cramming six tons of wire into a little DB-37 connector...
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:38 PM   #12
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Hey! You've been a busy little bee. I figured making avatars would have taken all the free time you had. :-P

You should have left the wire sticking out of the back of TSEL longer. And a ground ref. Right by the serial port, you'll see a SG and S5, "sanctioned ground/5V" they are. I put a little loop on each - the ground I use all the time, the 5V I could have lived without.

Are you using those little transistors on the proto area as inputs or outputs? If inputs, putting a cap to ground really helped me, you might want to look into it, just to keep things from going weird on you later, it's a headache WELL worth avoiding (my car would run with the o-scope hooked up, but not when I took it off. Took me a while to isolate THAT variable).

Looks really good those. I should clean mine up. I should actually order the board and build another from scratch. :-)

OMG it took me like 20 minutes to figure out your pinout table (compared to mine). Basically, I waste one on tach (which I'll fix later) and have one unused (could do clutch switch for launch control).
Your three "options" are WI-R, WI-S, Map-Switch
Mine are VICS, and two unused (one tach, one empty).

But yeah, remember me whining about wanting more pins since so many are wasted on ground? You sure run out fast, eh? At least I've got GPIO on the horizon. When you wise up and switch to MS-II I'll let you borrow my spare chip. :-)
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:49 PM   #13
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That wire is so small and cute i want some just to do that on mine. The 20 awg stuff i use can be a real pita sometimes.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
That wire is so small and cute i want some just to do that on mine. The 20 awg stuff i use can be a real pita sometimes.
You can buy it at RadioShack- it's sold as "wrapping wire", as that's the intended application. We use it in the lab for reworking prototype and damaged PCAs all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM
Hey! You've been a busy little bee. I figured making avatars would have taken all the free time you had. :-P
Actually, I've been home with a cold the past few days, so I've been trying to use that time constructively. It seems to be working.

Quote:
Are you using those little transistors on the proto area as inputs or outputs?
Those are the two relay drivers for Fan and WI Pump. No transistors on the inputs at all, apart from the one opto that's part of the stock crank trigger input circuit.

Quote:
OMG it took me like 20 minutes to figure out your pinout table (compared to mine).
Is that good or bad? I still haven't figured yours out.

Quote:
But yeah, remember me whining about wanting more pins since so many are wasted on ground? You sure run out fast, eh?
Yeah... My original plan (a month ago) had been to mount a couple of six pin Molex .062 connectors on the endplates and use those for all the miscellaneous I/O like the Knock, WI, EBC, Map switch, etc. Imagine my surprise when the parts showed up from DIY- that case is amazingly tiny! I'd have been OK with the DB-37 the way they had it if there was space for me to put another connector or two on the endplates!

I got the wiring into the DB-37 finished a few minutes ago- it actually wasn't nearly as bad as I'd feared- the secret was to use a small tie-wrap to bunch the wires together, then slip a piece of 1/2" heat-shrink tube up past where the clamp goes and shrink all the wires down into a nice, tight circular group:

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Old 01-09-2008, 04:41 PM   #15
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Looks good. I did that when i first built my harness but then i had to modify the wiring and never redid it.
So when will you begin testing the injector outputs compared to what you had with the emanage?
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post

Is that good or bad? I still haven't figured yours out.

The MS is a lot smaller and lighter than I was expecting. Of course, since the complicated inputs aren't needed and could be a daughter card, really the whole thing could be half the size it is. I guess that's the microsquirt for you (though I think it retains the opto and VR circuits?)

The table needs more cleaning up. I tried to "compact it" but I think instead I "made it" more confusing. :-( My early version was much better. Anway, I'll probably redo the whole harness once things are finalized. I think that small wires and running fewer grounds made yours a lot cleaner.

You got me all excited to redo all mine, but I'm going to wait until everything is hooked up.

Oh! I am thinking of mounting the computer behind the glove box, where the piggy link used to be. There's enough room to do it, a couple of ways, then the OEM location would be a big hole: can you say stereo amplifier?

I sure hope so.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
So when will you begin testing the injector outputs compared to what you had with the emanage?
Well, I've just started that, and it's not looking good.

First, I have verified (by observing datalog vs. scope) that the injector duration which the MS gives you on the dashboard display is the true duration, whereas the duration that the EMU gives you is the effective duration (true duration minus lag time). Also, EMU gives pressure in relative kPa, where 0 = atmospheric.

With that in mind, I add about 0.8ms to all of my logged EMU durations. So, the first log I pulled up was the evening of Dec 1, on the way home. At RPM = 3513, MAP = +22 (relative), CLT = 88 and IAT = 42, I get 7.1ms relative duration, or 7.9 absolute. Feeding that data into the MS I'm seeing 5.6ms duration.

Next I look at a map of me driving to the airport- lots of nice steady-state cruise. RPM = 3750, MAP = -46 (relative), CLT = 86, IAT = 33. That gives me 2.8ms duration, or 3.6 true. With these inputs, the MS is giving me 2.2ms of fuel.

It's closer at higher RPM/MAP cells. Looking at a datalog of RPM = 6015, MAP = +92, CLT = 82 and IAT = 18 gives me 10.8 (11.6) on the EMU and 11.1 on the MS.

Not really sure where to start here...
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:38 PM   #18
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I know you'll hate me for saying this.... but the place to start is not the workbench.

You know you're in the ball park.

You know the car won't blow up if you're 0.1 AFR off.

Open the wastegate, go drive around. You can log everything you want, and check it after, and have it autotuned if you don't like it.

The first thing I noticed: My car runs WAY better a full 2.0 pts leaner around town than it ever did stock. Sure, much of that is timing, but... you're trying really, really hard to reproduce a system that's sub-optical. <echem> sub-optimal.

You want to make sure you're ballpark, but I can tell you from experience of loading three different tables and getting out on the road - unless it's WAY off, you're fine. :-) And if it is way off, that car as likely won't run.

So... I'd say give it the quickest of reality checks, install it, and try to convince your buddy abe to ride shotgun in exchange for free beer. He can tow you home in his running MS if things don't work right.

<edit> The point being, so it's not missed, if your previous set up was PERFECT, you wouldn't be changing it. Just run it.
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:18 PM   #19
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Wait a sec... this doesn't make sense.

I just ran the MS at simulated idle- 800 RPM and 20" vacuum (33 kPa) which put me at 30% VE. If my Req Fuel is 4.2ms, that puts the base fuel for this operating condition at 1.26ms. Add in the 1ms injector opening time and I should see about 2.2ms injector duration on the output (which is about what I measured on my current setup). Instead I see about 1.52ms duration.

Something ain't right here.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:34 PM   #20
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Maybe the MS has less lag time for the injectors being as it does direct control instead of going through the stock ecu
Bottom line is drive that sucker and see what it does.
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