:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

that's cool, have you had any luck with closed loop? I never could get it working. open loop works real well though.

a tps is really only useful if you have a tiny turbo you don't want boosting all the time.

i'll have specifics later, with pretty charts and all, after I get home. I will go ahead and tell you we broke 250 rwhp on the dynapack on a rich tune @ 14 psi

awesome.... it'll be exciting to see a what a dyno-tuned turbo timing map looks like.

:eek: need dyno time now!!!!

Wow!, great numbers Ben. I really got to get that clutch and diff in my car so I can up the boost. I am way behind with my 180 hp at 7psi. :gay:

Are you on the stock diff still? or have you upgraded to a 7" unit?

227.1 wtq / 255.4whp were the final numbers with a spike to 15psi at about 4000 followed by a pretty even 14psi to redline.


Here's the chart showing what we could do with the MBC (dotted lines) versus the MSPNP's EBC.


http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/images/...mbc_vs_ebc.jpg

How's it feel Ben? Felt good to me ;)

looks great, what injectors are you running ben?

RC 440s. I'll have datalogs later...

Didn't get a chance to open her up on the way home. Bumper to bumper the WHOLE trip. I did make the BOV scream for the ladies under a large bridge though. Low speed cruising and stop n go, the MS did great.

Gonna go for a ride after waiting another 30 minutes for traffic to die down.

BTW, the dyno operator Scott took the car for a ride and came back grinning like a chesire cat.


Ben

Give us some details on the tuning process!

440s huh i'm curious on your duty cycles

Which downpipe are you running? It looks like my car spools a little before yours and I'm wondering if that is why. I have full boost at around 3250 rpm with the turbo tony dp.

Just looked this over, and the datalogs are reporting 72% but that's not right. The REQ_FUEL we used is off a bit from what it should have been which won't hurt anything, but will make the DC reading inaccurate unfortunately. Doing the math though these injectors are maxed out for sure... IMO I'd go with 550's to put this kind of power down with stock fuel pressure and keep the DC's in a good spot.

The REQ_FUEL is off due to an oversight... we tweaked it earlier this week as a quick fix to get the car driveable before tuning, and should have set it back today before tuning to be honest... not a big deal but it does effect the DC readings in the datalog. I have to take the blame here... I honestly thought the map we started with this morning was the base map I setup for 440's from BEFORE we tweaked the REQ_FUEL as a quick fix, and I should have double checked it...:vash:

Can you post correct injector settings for RC 440s? I might be installing mine this weekend (2000 motor).

-Mike

The MS does a great job on the power runs. Unfortunately everywhere I went yesterday evening I got stuck in awful traffic and/or behind old ladies. Coupled with the fact that the car is so fast now, I run out of room quickly. Maybe tomorrow I can get a long full WOT pull in.

That's too bad about the IJDC. I have to take blame there, too. Afterall, I was the guy who made the car run on 440s by moving req fuel until it idled well :doh: It would have been nice to know real world duty cycle. Before I used those injectors I calculated 85% max dc @ 250 horse. We did hit a little more than 250 and we are running a tad richer than I calculated for though, so maybe it's upwards of 90%.

Brian, 2.5" tony dp transitioning to 2.25". I'd be sure that your car has a better FMIC design and larger exhaust. 6" rear. Still haven't had a good WOT run, but so far the car pulls hard but the gears are short. I actually just got an offer on my 7" hybrided miata/rx7 LSD swap, but me thinks at this point it would be smarter to keep it. On the dyno we did a wastegate basline run before setting the EBC, wg 6 psi did just shy of 170 rwhp. As a marker, 3k miles ago with the bandaids I hit 165 rwhp on 7 psi on the dynojet in a COLD room.

Pretty much the same as me on exhaust, my FMIC may be a little better though. You better hang onto to the 7" RX7 unit because you are gonna need it at those power levels. Your diff has to be a grenade right now. :eek:

Explain why the MBC wouldn't hold the peak boost :confused:
Did you make any adjustments to the "aggressive" PnP IGN map?
Richest AFR was 11.5:1 at peak boost - 16psi?

Probably the same old story with the greddy wastegate....needs a helper spring.

yeah ben, we need answers!!!! got a datalog of the last few dyno pulls...I'd like to look over them in MLV.

Yeah, get 'em to brainy so he can start building the datalogging and tuning FAQ :bigtu: ;)

This stuff is exciting...but I'm in STL and won't be back to keep working on my car until Monday :(

:rofl:

I don't have any of the MLV files. They're on Jerry's laptop. So you're relying on my memory :ugh2:

Rob, yes I now know what's up with the greddy overshoot. I'm told that it's the position of the nipple for boost source on the turbo. It's in a low boost area of the turbo. It is supposed to be at the compressor outlet. If you look at the subie turbo it's compressor outlet extends about 3/4" further out to make room for a nipple. The tuning expert Scott told me putting a nipple in the charge pipe as near to the compressor outlet as possible will significantly decrease the spike if not eliminate it.

Yes, changes were made in the timing map. It was very interesting to watch. Jerry would make small adjustments between runs. We never got into a detonation problem, but there were several places where decreasing advance made equal power. Interesting stuff. Advance was added in the higher rpm/MAP ranges too. That's probably why HP continues to climb all the way to redline so hard. Overall it looks like the map runs a lot of advance. I used cheap Quick Trip 93. Scott told me on his car he has to loose 4 deg of advance to run QT vs Shell. Again we never got into det problems, even with my stock heat range plugs and discount gas. We did have a spark blow out one time.

Watching them tune fuel was interesting too. I went in wanting a flat 12.5:1-12.0:1 curve. The MS certainly would have been capable of accomondating. But they showed me that there was more power available by running richer in certain spots without any timing adjustment. My car seemed very happy at 12.5 increasing to high 11s, then mid 11s at the very end for safety. We had both my LC1 WB and a MoTec WB to tune by. I was impressed at how they agreed with each other to .1 AFR!! I just did a free air cal on my WB on Wednesday.

I still will run on a dynojet for fun to see big HP numbers. But for tuning, the load dyno, while expensive, is amazing. A lot of the street tuning I would have done instead turns out would have been plain wrong. IE going for 12.5 afr and pushing timing until knock then backing down slightly.

It was a PITA to get the car on the dyno. The dyno pods had been disassembled by some jackhole so we had find all the hoses and make the connections. Then we had to get the back wheels off. For some reason, my car has one (1) splined lugnut. I'd never noticed it. Of course it was on a back wheel. So we got one of the subie techs to weld a nut to the lugnut. I think that was Jerry's idea. It was a good damn idea. Once the wheels are off, you still have to bolt up hub adaptors then raise/lower the car so you can shove the dyno pods into the hubs. So it took a long time to do. Cool things about it is the loading is friggin awesome and there is no big, dangerous rotating drum. No fear of kicking up rocks either.

If they got some more cooling going on (another fan or two and/or a mister) I may have put up some better peak numbers. Though what we did was more like real world: hot motor, hot intercooler, sucking down 90 deg ambient air. One medium sized fan was blowing into the intercooler side of the radiator. The fan didn't even take up the whole mouth. :gay:
Maybe I'll run it at BPM's dynojet in their sub 60 deg dyno room with 9 high volume fans. What do you think, 265-270 ?? :eek5:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/at...1&d=1179496968

Ben - now that Ben's car is "complete" he'll be able to focus on yours! :rofl:

This has me seriously considering writing a check to have somebody tune my car. At the rate I'm going it is going to take forever making street runs. Though interesting and educational (perhaps risky?), I can see frustration in my future by not making the power I should because I'm not the "expert".

Curious to what this cost you - pm me if it's confidential. ;)

dearest jerry....


must see logs......it's your duty......https://www.miataturbo.net/braineack/smiles/patriot.gif

Rob, it was equivelent in cost to one GOOD speeding ticket, maybe less depending on what insurance does....

Good news! I stand corrected on the Injector DC... it is NOT dependent on REQ_FUEL. Matt (here at DIY) just suggested that, and I called Ken Culver (Muythaibxr, one of the coders) to confirm and sure enough that calculation is independent of REQ_FUEL...

So I checked the final datalog again and confirmed Max DC is 74.3%. Not bad at all.

Here's a screenshot--
http://megasquirtpnp.com/images/mm90...wtq 255whp.jpg

And here's the whole datalog if you'd like to load it into MegaLogViewer

I don't normally tune cars for $$, and Ben didn't pay me a dime for what I did yesterday, he just paid for the dyno time and the operators time. So hopefully what I say here has some credibility.

It is SO WORTH IT to have your car properly tuned in on a load based dyno-- I simply can't say it enough. Yes it costs money... it's not cheap. Minimum $350 for a full steady state tune followed by ramp run tuning and it goes up depending on the dyno/tuner and how long it takes them (familiarity with MS will be a part of that). I've know a tuner that uses a Dyno Dynamics dyno that costs $150/hr to rent and the tuner charges $100/hr on top of that-- but he's one of the best and people keep him busy. The knowledge to do this right isn't extremely common, and it costs money to get it done right...

BUT-- before you balk at that.... your car will never run better than after it is properly tuned like this. We're not just talking about WOT runs which everyone is interested in... but drivability will be amazing. Pretty much all that's left after a full tune like this is your cold start, afterstart enrichments, and accel enrichments. That takes a bit of tinkering. AE can be done on the street pretty easily. Cold Start and AfterStart take a few cold starts to get just right-- obviously that can't be done on the dyno because cold start means dead cold, like after sitting for several hours.

Do this and your car has never run better. It costs money, but it is money well spent.

How long were you on the dyno for?

god I wish the hydra datalogged everything. I'd like to know my blood pressure while doing a 3rd gear 50-70 roll on pass. you know?

Jerry: 2001 miata. VVT. You know you want to.

the idle fuel looks low %, but it seems like he's idling at 12.5:1 or so....wattup with that?

Seriously. But all the transient settings like enrichments and primers and enrichments for cranking and post-start are SO MUCH EASIER to tune when you know your map is good!

Because how do you know what your AFR really is at idle if you have all these enrichments set wrong and the fuel map is wrong too?

Matt

Look at the injector PW.

Jay--most of the day.

dealing with limited experience/knowledge here....for me 1.6-1.8 PW at idle seemss normal...but I was only at about 40% VE cells at idle with a solid 14.7:1 AFR....just curious.

those numbers are in milliseconds. it takes .1 ms for open time and .1 ms for close time. so a 1.6ms pw means only 1.4 ms of squirt time. :eek:

you need to spell it out for me...and this could be cause my wb sensor died, but i was seeing the same pw on the same injectors, with more fuel in the fuel cells at idle and seeing 14.7-15.2:1 idle....you have less fuel, and the same pulse width with 4° more timing and seeing 12.5-12.8:1 idle...

= :confused: me

:dunno: maybe you have a vac leak :gay:

How does your idle feel? When I idle around 14.7 the car starts to miss a little. 13.0 it's smooth as glass. I have confidence in the numbers given by my LC1 because they jived exactly with the dyno's MoTec. Surprised the hell outta me, actually.

36-40 MAP at idle

I guess ill attribute that to a bad wbo2 sensor....since I thought I was at 12.5:1 in boost and it was at least 10:1, the dynos WB didnt read that rich...:rofl:

oh btw, happen to have your EBC duty cycle tables/targets...I just got my MOSFET to build the EBC mod and wanna see what your non-tps tables look like.....thanks homey....btw, your FMU is going back into the mail today....I have it here.

I wonder if your LC didn't calibrate itself while in your exhaust? That would cause it to ignore some fuel in the stream and read less than actual.

I don't think my solenoid duty cycles will work for you. But if you want them, I'll grab them. Be very careful, my car drops boost with rpm and the table is populated to counter act that. Start low and work it up slowly. Oh, and I didn't question him, but the tuner told me that it's best for the motor to build up to a peak boost then slowly drop it towards redline. You can look at my MAP on the log to see what I mean.

Thanks for sending the FMU. I told Corky to send it to me. oh well. you want me to cover shipping?

Eh, my lc-1 doesnt work at all. I picked up a sensor from y8s and tried it, and nothing....I acutally ripped it out and I'm sending it back to innovative...
yeah send them over...im still curious just to see what they look like...I have a FM solenoid, not a GM like you are probably using anyways...

How does the MS deal with injector lag time (offset on the link)? To get my RX7 injectors to work properly and the car to idle with out dumping in a pile of extra fuel I had to adjust the injector offset. Until I screwed with the offset I had to increase my master fuel about 20-25% to get an idle around 14.7:1. Now I'm back to about 95% master fuel and idles very well.

Could this be what Scott is seeing?

Also 36-40 what? KPA?

yeah kPa or about 20~hg. of vac

I'm seeing about 30KPA at 2700ft above sealevel. You sure you don't have a vacuum leak?

I'm pretty constant 32kpa

whoops, it's more like 34-32...i looked at a log with a hunting idle...

i run 1.6-1.8 DC at idle with my 460's :dunno: Ben great work man you so make me wish i had my car done. Awsome stuff MS is frigin awsome makes me wanna try to fiddle with my spark somemore. ;)

Actually we've got it set a 1ms for injector opening time... that leaves .6ms for pulsewidth at idle. Changing VE just a little makes a big difference in VE with large injectors on a 4cyl with the standard code. It sometimes settled in at 13.2-3, sometimes in the mid-upper 12's. I may play with the hi-res code at some point since most of you guys use hi impedance injectors anyways and that's the only feature you lose with the high res code, but you gain better resolution which will give you finer PW control everywhere, but it will help the most at idle.

The other option is to change from 2 squirts alternating over to 1 squirt simultaneous. That would increase the idle PW and give more room for fine adjustment of the idle AFR with the current resolution.

Jerry, thank you for the clarifications. Awesome to know that IJDC is so low.

The car is a beast. It's very drivable, power is delivered in a linear manner, until 5500 rpm then it you better shift quick! But boost comes on in a fashion that it doesn't scare you or suddenly try to turn the car around. First gear is quick and useless. Second gear hooks until spooled, then lights em up. Third gear is fun, but still short. I had a good time today watching the black stripes follow me in the rear view. :skid:

Still needs a little economy tuning here n there. It has some 11:1-12:1 spots in light load conditions and some 13:1 spots on the highway I'd like to lean out. I just need someone to drive the car for me while I use the laptop.

I know I told you that I was going to turn boost down for daily driving, but uhm no, that's not happening. It's perfect as it is.

If you've got a few minutes minutes next week bring it by and we'll get the highway cruise right and those couple of rich spots...

As for the boost-- I kindof figured you'd end up leaving it, it's just too much fun ;)

:bowdown: Thanks Jerry!

I got a few PMs asking how well the car dives with the MS. I thought this thread was pretty explicit in that regard. This post is in response to the PMs. Don't be afraid to post publicly; odds are someone else may benefit from seeing your question answered.

To hit the popular questions:
The car drives great. It's fast, peppy, responsive, strong, and compotent. No, it wasn't that way right out of the box; nothing is that easy, ever. No standalone or piggy is 100% out of the box, not even an FMU or BIPES. The base map preloaded on my MSPNP was for an NA car, tweaked up a bit to make a turbo car run with an empahsis on not blowing up the motor. Basically many load zones in the tables were filled with WAGs. Getting from the guessed numbers in the base map to a tweaked out dyno tuned map wasn't hard, but it did take a day at the dyno to make it happen.

But hey, good news is, you guys have a turbo base map now. So hopefully you'd have less tuning to do than I did.

I got the impression on some of the PMs that people were looking to just plug the MS in and go. Don't expect it to be that easy. I think you should expect the car to start up and drive, but don't expect it to be dialed in. If you can get someone to help you road tune the vac cells over an hour, maybe 2 hours, you could have the boost cells tuned on a dyno in 1-2 hours. Any good tuner should understand the software GUI, it's really a simple interface.

how is everyone wiring in knocksense with the Mspnp?

Rtfm

Anyone who expects that of a fully configurable ECU need their head looking at ;)

Even FM with the LINK ECU will need fine tuning

Tuning the MSPNP is equally labor intensive to tuning the FM Link.
Installing the MSPNP is easier than installing the FM Link.

But yeah, expecting 100% out of the box isn't sane.

Apparently the next version will install itself when you put it near your Miata, like on The Mask.

I want one of those.

how much did you all pay total for ur MSpnp? i see at DIYauto its 700$ but im curious too see what differneces there are. BTW WTF is the deal with the damn post limit rules :vash:

$700 for MSPNP (diyautotune)
$30 for open element AIT w bung (diyautotune)
$60 for MAPDADDY *optional (diyautotune)
$37 for GM boost solenoid and harness (from local chevy dealer) *optional
$98 for knocksensems (forget the website, it's in this thread somewhere) *optional

I also had to pay sales tax because I'm local :td: