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Old 03-08-2008, 01:10 PM   #1
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Default Learn me in the ways of the MS piggyback.

[PMS]I had an MSPNP for a while, but honestly didn't have the patience for it as i could never get the idle control and starting pulsewidths right. my neighbors got tired of hearing a shotgun blast every morning as i tried to start the car, only to have my battery die from the startup attempts. [/PMS]

I liked the concept of the MS though. The control for the cost seems like a much better value than an EMB or EMU, and there's a lot of support on this forum for it.

If I decide to do a piggyback MS, I'm assuming my injector size is limited to whatever the stock ECU can idle? What would that be on a 1.6 ECU?

I got rid of my Greddy setup with the plans to ultimately run a modified BEGI-S with a front mount and 2.5" exhaust, similar to my old setup but with more quality parts.

I would like to see about 200whp. Is this doable with a piggyback MS?
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:12 PM   #2
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You've got it allll wrong

The MS will control any size injectors and up to any power. If you cant get it running with the PnP you haven't got a hope with a piggyback.
The Piggy back will still control the injectors, and have nothing to do with the stock ECU.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:16 PM   #3
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that seems like a misnomer then. I always hear people say to go piggy back for two reasons: because the stock computer controls idle and fan control, and because the stock computer can still manage the idle droop caused by the A/C.

And yes, i realize the MSPNP had that same ability, but i'm talking normal MS vs. Piggyback MS. If the piggyback controls the injectors and everything, who controls the idle?
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supersaiyan93 View Post
that seems like a misnomer then. I always hear people say to go piggy back for two reasons: because the stock computer controls idle and fan control, and because the stock computer can still manage the idle droop caused by the A/C.
Yes that's true, but your problems are all with injecting fuel, which the MS will do even if it's piggyback.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:29 PM   #5
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I wouldnt bother with a piggyback setup with an obd1 computer. The only real point to it is for passing emissions that do a computer scan. You'll be much better off figuring out the idle problems than just adding more complexity to the system.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:54 PM   #6
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yeah, it seems that way. well, i guess my stupid question was concisely answered. thanks guys.
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:36 PM   #7
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Honestly from what I understand, Piggyback Vs. standalone will have no affect on the usefulness of MS. You should be able to obtain the same results either way.
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:25 PM   #8
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Is there someone running MS that has a similar setup?
If the MSQ.s are close, that would help a lot w/ your first MS encounter. (Or if they are real close-such as different injectors, then go find the same injectors as that setup)

FWIW I go back and forth a LOT, time is a premium now a days (my kid is sick so I'm kinda stuck today).

The piggy set that Braineack should be pretty well sorted out by now (I was one of his first) I had bad experiences last year w/ my own MS, and went back to the EMB. Now I have both. The resale price of EMB's is ridicoulously low know adays, but still a very capable setup for 10 psi or less.
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:30 PM   #9
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Sorry to hear about your experience with the MSPNP, and even sorrier I didn't have a chance to help you get it setup right for your car... they drive like a dream. If you decide to give it another go keep us in the loop this time, we'll have no problem getting it right for you.
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Old 03-08-2008, 10:41 PM   #10
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I was going to say, I put my PNP in, changed the injectors, removed the AFM and wideband all hooked up and running almost instantly.
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:47 PM   #11
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I think that most of the confusion stems from people calling it "piggyback" instead of the more proper term "parallel". We all understand piggybacks to manipulate control signals either pre-ecu or post-ecu. The MS in parallel does neither but instead controls certain items (injectors, igniters, etc.) while the stock ecu controls others (a/c, idle, etc.). The 2 do not meddle in eachothers business.

When the MS was first popular here I seem to remember that most guys used "parallel" while recently, there has been a shift to calling it "piggyback". We should all try to use the correct term and it might help to avoid any confusion in the future.
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:30 AM   #12
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Yeah, the "piggyback" misnomer was what got me.

Jerry, the problem was not with your product. The problem was apparently with me.

I had the car running pretty good on the 550's. Then one day the temp dropped about 15 degrees after a coldfront moved through. I spent an entire weekend trying to start it; flooding it, pulling plugs and cleaning them, reinstalling, lather, rinse, repeat. I started low and worked my way up, started high then worked my way down. Changed the plugs. Checked EVERYTHING. I could NOT get the car to start again. Period.

Put the stock injectors back in, reloaded the base map. vroom.

Painful honesty for a bit:

Apparently, I was either doing something way wrong or I'm an idiot, or I don't know. I don't like it when I can't do something. lol. Thankfully, it doesn't come up a lot, but that MSPNP was making a fool out of me. lol. I saw everyone on here saying "runs like a champ" or "so reliable my stock ECU is for sale."

My experience just wasn't like that. I got so disgusted that i had this car i just invested tons of money into and haven't driven in WEEKS, that in a fit of disgust, i sold off all my turbo parts (look at my iTrader rating for christ's sake, lol) and went back to stock.

I regretted that decision IMMEDIATELY when i drove it on stock power again. I quickly decided my next step would be the BEGi-S when funds allow (soon now).

I love the concept of the MSPNP. I really do. But I don't think any of you would want to bother hand-holding me through that again.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:42 PM   #13
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So....umm...........does anyone want to bother hand-holding me through this again? lol. I'm thinking of getting the MSPNP with the Begi-S1 (GT2560) and running 460cc injectors this go around. Does someone have a similar setup to that that would be willing to help develop an .msq file? If I can just get the damn thing to start, I can pretty much figure out the rest.
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:50 PM   #14
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plug it in, open your laptop, change the settings outlined in the manual for larger injectors....specifically req_fuel and cranking pws. start it up, do your timing, start tuning.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
plug it in, open your laptop, change the settings outlined in the manual for larger injectors....specifically req_fuel and cranking pws. start it up, do your timing, start tuning.
That's fairly right on SS93... the info on scaling the Req_fuel setting, cranking PW's, and AE PW's is all in the MSPNP Manual under the section for how to set the unit up for different size injectors... And if you have any trouble shoot our tech guys an email, I've got two tech guys here onsite 40 hours a week to help.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:18 AM   #16
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The wonderful thing about engine management is that documentation enables learning prior to application. Lots of reading pays big dividends IMO - then the ability to leave the car sitting if you don't finish the job and get it running. And there's the advantage of a large experienced user base you have here. I'd say if it's not working after a couple of tries, go back to the computer and start searching. Otherwise you'll send yourself into a desperate downward spiral... right?
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:26 AM   #17
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That's usually the case, yes. And please, if you don't see it in the manual, or the manual doesn't make it clear, ask us for help if you need it! We're glad to help... [email protected]
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