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Old 01-28-2012, 11:27 PM   #1
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Default meth and DIYPNP

Hey guys this might be a stupid question but my searching found nothing. The car is a 1990 with a DIYPNP. My question is would it be possible/somewhat easy to wire up another injector to the ecu, then create a separate map to control my water meth more accurately?
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Mike
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:55 PM   #2
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No. Don't use a regular fuel injector with water meth or it may die.

If you have one that is compatible, sure, why not!
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:09 AM   #3
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Along as the internals are stainless I was thinking it may be ok.... is this not correct?
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:16 AM   #4
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I suppose you could set up staged injection, where the 1st injector output drives your 4 main injectors and the second injector output drivers your "staged" water/meth injector.

The hardware will do it. Will your injector hold up to water?
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:06 PM   #5
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You would also need a rail for the injector and a mounting method... And still need a pump and a tank.

A regular WI nozzle might be easier since you don't need the rail or mount.
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
You would also need a rail for the injector and a mounting method... And still need a pump and a tank.

A regular WI nozzle might be easier since you don't need the rail or mount.
We're about to release an injector mount that will make it very easy to add an extra injector.

A WI nozzle is just that, a nozzle. It doesn't have a valve to regulate flow.
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:35 PM   #7
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While we're on the subject, does anybody know of any "injectors" out there capable of passing water or methanol reliably?

I know that Aquamist has their PWM-controlled "high speed valve", was wondering if there's anything more injector-like out there?
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Old 01-29-2012, 03:22 PM   #8
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Im trying to find an injector that will, I've been busy lately. As far as a "rail" goes, I made an aluminum bungthat will be welded on the intercooler piping and will hold the injector in place. The tank and pump will be utilized from my previous set up.
thanks,
Mike
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Old 01-29-2012, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
While we're on the subject, does anybody know of any "injectors" out there capable of passing water or methanol reliably?

I know that Aquamist has their PWM-controlled "high speed valve", was wondering if there's anything more injector-like out there?
FIC can be ordered with meth compatibility. It's like a buck or two more for the seals that are required.

I don't know about water + meth mixture compatibility.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
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FIC can be ordered with meth compatibility.
Fogarty International Center?
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:44 PM   #11
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No, don't be silly Joe. I obviously meant Feline Idiopathic Cystitis.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:46 PM   #12
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^^^^ Ahahahahaha I felt like an idiot because was unsure of what FIC stood for, glad it wasn't just me.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:53 PM   #13
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Would adding a corrosion inhibitor added to the water, such as the ones used for radiators, solve the problem of finding special injectors?
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
We're about to release an injector mount that will make it very easy to add an extra injector.

A WI nozzle is just that, a nozzle. It doesn't have a valve to regulate flow.

Yes but you still need a pump. And some way of turning on the pump. Progressive control will make for more intuitive tuning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I know that Aquamist has their PWM-controlled "high speed valve", was wondering if there's anything more injector-like out there?

That motherfukkka is just a solenoid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangMike View Post
Im trying to find an injector that will, I've been busy lately. As far as a "rail" goes, I made an aluminum bungthat will be welded on the intercooler piping and will hold the injector in place. The tank and pump will be utilized from my previous set up.
thanks,
Mike

You still need a way to give the injector access to water. That = rail.


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Would adding a corrosion inhibitor added to the water, such as the ones used for radiators, solve the problem of finding special injectors?
Ugh that sounds stupid. I'm telling you. If you use a fuel injector you will still need:


Water/meth tank
Water/meth pump
water/meth line
water/meth rail
way of controlling injection

You may as well just run a regular WI nozzle. It would allow you to eliminate:

rail.

Did I mention that WI nozzle is like $15???????? And WI line is like $2/ft????
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:20 AM   #15
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BTW I looked into this stuff because I am running high HP and high boost (600+, 40psi) and damn it would have been a real pain in the *** to run real injectors for meth instead of WI parts.
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
That motherfukkka is just a solenoid.
Yes, but it's a solenoid which can be controlled with a relatively high degree of precision.

There are advantages and disadvantages to such a design.

On the plus side, using a PWM-controlled solenoid upstream of conventional WI nozzle will produce a fairly consistent output (eg, a continuous spray of water, rather than discrete pulses of water.) On the minus side, it does not allow for the same degree of precision that a fuel injector (or similar device) would, nor it is as easily controlled with a Megasquirt.


Quote:
Did I mention that WI nozzle is like $15???????? And WI line is like $2/ft????
And a pointed stick costs less than a Mauser SP66. But the latter is a much more precise way of poking holes in things.


It would be nice if a device existed which were roughly analogous to a fuel injector (eg: it has discrete on and off states, an integral nozzle, and can be operated at the same speed as the primary injectors) which were capable of passing either straight water, straight methanol, or a mixture of the two without concern for corrosion or failure of internal parts.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:13 PM   #17
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Joe even though i am tunning more nozzles than everyone else on this site combined, I would love to have a real fuel injection system as oppose to my aquamist.

Tell us how it can be done more easily than the traditional WI please.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Tell us how it can be done more easily than the traditional WI please.
At the risk of sounding condescending, I'd have thought that this was self-evident.

Assuming a device which is functionally similar to a fuel injector, you would connect them to the MS3 and configure them as secondary staged injectors. Thus, the amount of timing of water injection can be precisely controlled and synchronized with the main injectors.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
At the risk of sounding condescending, I'd have thought that this was self-evident.

Assuming a device which is functionally similar to a fuel injector, you would connect them to the MS3 and configure them as secondary staged injectors. Thus, the amount of timing of water injection can be precisely controlled and synchronized with the main injectors.
You still need the tank, pump, regulator, rail, injector, and if you want to do staged injection that makes tuning kludgy. I guess you could adjust volume with the regulator.
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
You still need the tank, pump, regulator, rail, injector, and if you want to do staged injection that makes tuning kludgy.
Well, you need the tank, pump, and plumbing anyway. A rail isn't needed if the "injectors" are retained by other means (eg, male thread in the "pintle" area.)

If you're trying to convince me that such a system would be inherently more complex than one which uses passive nozzles and PWM regulation of the pump, you don't have to, as I'm not arguing to the contrary.

What I am saying is that my own quick-and-dirty bench testing has shown me that the degree to which you can effectively regulate water delivery (while still maintaining decent atomization) by PWM control of a Shurflo-style pump is quite limited and crude by way of comparison to a system using an injector-like delivery device controlled directly by the ECU.
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