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Old 02-08-2015, 01:39 PM   #1
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Default MS3/X crank fire and sequential fuel/ignition

Finally got my MS3/X running on my 1.6 NA. Right now it uses the stock ignition and stock fuel (just modded to stock NA 1.8 injectors). Had been running a MSPNP but needed a bit more firepower. To start, I need Sequential Spark and Fuel with crank fire trigger. Later I want to add 4 channel EGT using the MS3 CAN system

I have searched this forum, but can't find any links to posts for upgrading the system. I know the 3X can do what I want, my question is how best to make the changes. Sequential fuel and ignition should be easy (I hope). I have fab9 cop kit to work with.

For the crank fire, what is the best trigger wheel. 36-1? Do I need to keep CAS in conjunction with the crank wheel?

Lots more questions but surely this has been done many times previously. If someone would kindly point me to previous posts on this subject I would be most appreciative.

Cheers
Henry
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:53 AM   #2
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In my experience, most pencil coil kits for the Miata have been more cosmetic upgrades than real performance improvements. I would not go that route if you want a hotter than stock ignition.

What is your goal with adding a crank trigger?
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Old 02-09-2015, 01:48 PM   #3
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Goal for crank fire is to reduce spark scatter. Timing belt really bounces around - even when new and tight.

Don't need much more of a spark, just need four coils. Also have some ls1 coils but don't think I need them for this engine.
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:16 AM   #4
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It seems like you are dead set on your path so fist, get the crank trigger working with the stock stuff. Wire the new crank sensor to the MS instead of the signal from the CAS. For running batch ign and inj, you don't need a cam sensor but.....

Once you get that running, you will want the CAS to provide a cam signal for seq ign and inj. I'm not familiar with how fab9 does things but I believe you will have to add a couple of wires to the ignition module they provide for seq ign. Choose COP in Tunerstudio.

For seq inj, you have to add two wires to the inj harness. Choose seq inj in Tunerstudio.

I know you asked for links and such but that's really all there is to it. You need wiring diagrams. And to get in touch with fab9.
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team DNR View Post
I have searched this forum, but can't find any links to posts for upgrading the system. I know the 3X can do what I want, my question is how best to make the changes. Sequential fuel and ignition should be easy (I hope). I have fab9 cop kit to work with.
you wire the coils and injectors individually to spark/fuel ABCD. then you tell your MS to fuel/spark sequentially.

you can use the stock CAS.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:56 AM   #6
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If using a 36-1 crank trigger, it would be easiest to modify the CAS to put out a 1 tooth signal for sequential.
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Old 02-13-2015, 08:56 AM   #7
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OK - think we've got a handle on the spark & fuel and the mods will be done today to see if the beast runs.
Presuming the above goes well, the crank fire will be next. Nothing purchased yet, but it seems the 36-1 wheel is the most cost effective.
Matt, what needs to be done to the CAS to put out a 1 tooth signal (for phasing I presume)? Please correct my recollection of what this thing is doing, but doesn't it currently have a 1 tooth output (along with a four tooth)?

Good news is that if we get this first car figured out we have 3 more to do!
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Old 02-16-2015, 04:07 PM   #8
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The stock CAS would have a 2 tooth signal and a 4 tooth - no one tooth. There were several designs and how to modify it would depend on whether you have an optical type or Hall effect.
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Old 02-22-2015, 03:23 PM   #9
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The stock CAS would have a 2 tooth signal and a 4 tooth - no one tooth. There were several designs and how to modify it would depend on whether you have an optical type or Hall effect.
OK, I've got the stock CAS for the MX5 1.6 which I think is an optical design. How do I get it to be one tooth? Disassemble and cover one of the two tooth openings? At any rate, not going to try and do any of this until I get the other issues resolved.

To wit: Got the FI harness rewired to the MSx outputs, ditto for the Coils. Engine cranks, and hits at odd intervals and produces the most HELLACIOUSLY LOUD backfires when it isn't hitting and popping out the intake. Not sure if this isn't just what this motor has always done, only more so because it is cold.

Anyway, went to the CAN test section of TS, and tested the outputs of the FI connectors and Coil connectors. Based on this test, we have sequential operation (except coil 2 which doesn't fire - but that is a Fab9 question which we are waiting on ).

SharkDogg thinks I've missed a setting within TS in going from batch/wasted to sequential - and this can be the problem. Not sure how I can find all the places to make changes.

Another possibility is that we do not get good pulse on the noids when we crank the motor vs running the CAN test. Looking at the composite log, the cam signal shows regular spikes vs the nice square wave. The crank signal has a good looking square wave. I would attach that file but I am simply unable to get that to work - all previous uploads to this forum simply won't go through.

One thing I learned so far, we should have only converted one thing, fuel or spark, at a time to simplify the trouble shooting

In any event, time is getting real short before the race and it is looking mighty iffy.
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Old 02-28-2015, 05:29 PM   #10
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UPDATE

Got car running. This is what we did/found out.

Seems the spark signal is 180 degrees out (on cam, 360 out on crank) which is why we got the most hellacious backfires and manifold farts. Used timing light to check timing while cranking - good on crank but cam marks were at 6 oclock position (180 out). Remember, car ran before we tried to switch it to Sequential spark and Fuel.

In tuner studio Set spark to Coil on Plug - Wasted Spark and dang, it cranks and runs! I'm guessing that even though each coil is wired indiviudally, the ecu fires 1/3 and4/2 together which eliminates the out of phase problem I seem to have. This idea came from Jeff Linfert and it was a step forward. It seems to me this verifies the timing issue, but leaves me in the dark as to how to fix it.

With this bit of added info, any fresh ideas? JoeBryan thinks that there should just be a setting in TS that would allow a fix via software settings. Adding in crank trigger angle does not seem to change anything, timing light is still at 180 out if I select full sequential cop.

BTW, the pencil coils we have are not Toyota, like we thought. Seems they were made for a Honda CBR Bike and made by Denso. If they can fire that Honda crotch rocket at stupid crazy bike rpms, should work ok on my little 1.6 at 8k. Two wire set up makes for a very clean installation.
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:02 PM   #11
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ABCD = 1342
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:58 PM   #12
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ABCD = 1342
Yep, and A=1 in wasted spark and A=1 in full sequential spark right?

In COP mode, timing light showed cam 180 degrees out, crank was at TDC. What I supposed was happing when we selected Wasted Spark COP it fired 1 & 4, then 3 & 2, which gives a spark signal in the correct phase. The outputs for fuel and spark were wired in as firing order, ie, A1, B3, C4 & D2. All that said, it didn't start until we selected wasted spark COP.

We keep thinking that there should be some setting in MS that would allow the spark to be reset. I have tried different crank trigger angles, and according to the timing light, nothing changes. This is using the stock 4-2 tooth wheel that comes in the stock 4G63 CAS. Next option we were going to try was the 4G63 with a 24-1 tooth wheel.

Thoughts?
Henry
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Old 03-03-2015, 06:42 PM   #13
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SUCCESS!
Installed a 24 (no missing teeth) and 1 (second row) trigger wheel in the stock CAS, replacing the 4 and 2.
Set TS to generic toothed trigger, selected COP, disconnected coils and started testing to see where it was firing. It was 360+ (crank) degrees out as we had suspected. Set trigger advance angle to 400 and engine hit but no start. Set it at 390 and VOILA - she runs! Checked fixed angle advance and dang if we weren't spot on at 10 degrees. Sometimes you just get lucky.

Anyway, it appears that the code for the MS3X for the 1.6 Miata and the stock CAS may have a glitch when Full Sequential Spark is selected with Coil on Plugs as it fires out of phase. Use of a revised trigger wheel within the stock CAS solved the problem by allowing us to select the correct trigger tooth angle.

Going to the DYNO tomorrow and hopefully get some good results cause we are going racing this weekend at VIR !

THANKS to Wes Kaiser and Jeff Linfert for their help and guidance through the many phone calls I made.

Henry
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Old 03-06-2015, 11:28 AM   #14
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a glitch for you maybe.

I was running seq. spark on the one of the first MS3 releases in 2010 on my 1.6L-- a few other MS3x I've built for people running 1.6Ls have successfully upgraded to seq. fuel and spark on the stock CAS as well.
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Old 03-06-2015, 12:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Team DNR View Post
Anyway, it appears that the code for the MS3X for the 1.6 Miata and the stock CAS may have a glitch when Full Sequential Spark is selected with Coil on Plugs as it fires out of phase.
Or the more likely scenario: Your trigger angle was 360 off or your wiring was backwards.

All NA Miatas (and 4G63 Mitubishi) use the exact same trigger arrangement, and we've been running them sequentially with MS3 for 5+ years. It was one of the first test cars for MS3.
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Old 03-06-2015, 06:49 PM   #16
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Seq. spark COPs and seq. fuel ms3 user checking in.
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:29 PM   #17
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Or the more likely scenario: Your trigger angle was 360 off or your wiring was backwards.

All NA Miatas (and 4G63 Mitubishi) use the exact same trigger arrangement, and we've been running them sequentially with MS3 for 5+ years. It was one of the first test cars for MS3.
OK Ben. That is obviously what I expected to see, but not what we found.

Certainly not saying I made no errors, but kind sir please tell me what wiring may I have done backwards? This is important as I am building my second MS3X (from DIYAutotune) and obviously don't want to repeat errors. Please don't tell me, like you did the last time we spoke on the phone, that you found DIY users benefited more by figuring it themselves - remember that conversation? I certainly do.

Trigger angle was not changed from where it was for Wasted Spark. Should it have been? It didn't run on sequential until we set trigger angle to 390, which corrected a 360 degree out condition, or what?
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:32 PM   #18
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Seq. spark COPs and seq. fuel ms3 user checking in.
Got it running in Seq spak with COPs with MS3 or the MS3X? How did it go? Trying to figure out if there is a root gremlin or if I made an assembly/connection error.
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Old 03-08-2015, 03:33 PM   #19
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Went just fine. I haven't had any issues...yet.
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Old 03-09-2015, 10:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Team DNR View Post
OK Ben. That is obviously what I expected to see, but not what we found.

Certainly not saying I made no errors, but kind sir please tell me what wiring may I have done backwards? This is important as I am building my second MS3X (from DIYAutotune) and obviously don't want to repeat errors. Please don't tell me, like you did the last time we spoke on the phone, that you found DIY users benefited more by figuring it themselves - remember that conversation? I certainly do.

Trigger angle was not changed from where it was for Wasted Spark. Should it have been? It didn't run on sequential until we set trigger angle to 390, which corrected a 360 degree out condition, or what?
The likely suspects are
-Ignition triggers wired in incorrect sequence
-fuel outputs wired in incorrect sequence (though ignition is more likely for the scenario you described)
-trigger angle 360 off

No I don't remember such a call. I don't think we've spoken in around 4 years Henry.
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