No spark on start up with VVT swap
 

Rev built me an MS2e back in 2013 for my MSM. All of the wiring was stock. I just completed a vvt swap and am having trouble getting the car started. There is no spark and I cannot figure out why. I am using stock 01+ semi cop coils with the stock wiring. I did have to extend the wiring for the cam sensor because the MSM cam sensor is on the front of the head and reads from the cam gear while the VVT came sensor is on the back of the cam cover and reads from the teeth on the back of the teeth on the cam itself. I was wondering if anyone could take a look at the attached log and see if they can see anything that might cause this as everything else seems to be working just fine. I did change the setting in 'ignition settings' to use cam sensor reading if available to 'on'. It was previously 'off' but neither setting worked. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Go over your wiring again, the ECU is not seeing a cam signal.

I went back over the wiring for the cam sensor and I know the ground wire and the power wire are working. I have not been able to figure out how to test the signal wire connections yet but Sixshooter is coming over with his multimeter now. I also respaced the crank sensor because it was bothering me. I have attached a composite log to show what I am seeing. It definitely does not look right to me but I am at a complete loss.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1423947377

I know that each of those red lines is also the recording of an event that the computer did not expect. Any ideas?

I am also attaching my .msq file in case there is some sort of setting problem that I am completely missing.

Been trying to fix this all day. I have attached some a new data log and the latest composite log. After doing some more research, I think the cam and crank signal may be correct the way they are now but I am not sure.

Your CAM signal looks as expected, but your crank signal is all whack. Should be all single peaks. Your signal stays up, goes down and is in general unpredictable.
I'm not familiar with your particular MS, but if you're sure your crank angle sensor works OK and your wiring is done well, you may have to adjust the input sensitivity on the MS in some way. My MS3 has a potentiometer for that.
You could also post a composite log (*.csv) for further troubleshooting.

Never mind. Saw the composite log. Your crank signal looks inverted from what mine looks like.
Weird since we both have "rising edge" selected.
Why did you disable the CAM signal?

The cam signal was disabled from when I was driving it around and to my knowledge has always been that way. However, I did enable it and tried that as well and there was no change. I believe the crank sensor is good as it was fine on the car before it exploded so unless I just got really unlucky and it died somehow while it was off the car I don't think that would be the problem, but not impossible.

Let me show you mine :-)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1423955923

I am having a bad feeling that my crank trigger wheel may be on backwards. Not sure if that would create an inverted signal but here is a picture from when I did my timing just to see.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1423957003

Are those teeth oriented correctly? I have no point of reference.

Trigger wheel is installed backwards?

I have no idea if that is a thing but I feel like I read it somewhere. I am just pretty much out of ideas and have no clue where to go from here.

Unless the timing is off a few teeth, the wheel is on backwards.

Is there a diagram somewhere so I can make sure the teeth are oriented correctly and I am not just guessing?

Maybe someone else with an NB could post pictures of their timing marks and you could see if the trigger tooth that is just to the right of them on your car is just to the left of them on someone else's.

You just need to take the four 10mm bolts off to pull the pulley and flip it around, right?

It makes sense that the error detection marks in the composite log align with the crank signals if the ecu isn't expecting them to be where they are.

I've actually been tinkering with mine recently. Here are some pictures that should help. Reference pin is at 12 o'clock.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424007676

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424007676

Ryan's is opposite from yours.

Going to see if that is the issue today. Thanks for all the input so far.

Okay. I was able to turn the crank trigger wheel around. That was definitely part of the issue. I am uploading another datalog and two composite logs. I noticed that now I only get errors in the composite log when I first start cranking. Everything else looks good from what I can see. What do I try next?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424034995

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424034995

Looking through the log now. Does my voltage look fine? I am not sure what it would normally look like during cranking but it seems to get no higher than 10v while actively cranking.

Both signals looks ok now, sync is fine. Ignore the startup doochebaggery.

Actual symptoms now? Does it try to catch at all or is it completely dead?

Edit: I just looked at your datalog, and your voltage is definitely messed up. 17V before you crank it? Definitely not right.

The voltage before is likely due to me having a battery charger hooked up to it so my battery wouldn't die from all the cranking. I think the battery might need to be replaced but I wanted to know if the voltage while cranking was low and maybe not enough to ignite the fuel? Every now and then I'll get a back fire so I assume the voltage jumps. What is normal voltage while cranking?

Anything between 9 and 11 during is reasonable.

Check your plugs first, maybe you've fouled them.

I'll check the plugs at my first chance. If its not the plugs what would be the next step? I assume coils? If I have a known good set of coils and that still doesn't work I would be out of ideas.

It wasn't even trying to start on Saturday. I don't know if it was better after turning the crank wheel around.

Yes, it is possible the plugs could have become fouled. I wasn't getting a spark signal with the timing light on Saturday and was not there Sunday to verify after the timing wheel was turned.

Reverent, when he first attempted to crank the car three weeks ago, he did not have the ground strap connecting the engine to the body of the car. Is it possible for this to cause damage to the MS? I noticed and added a ground strap two weeks ago, but something may have been damaged previously.

Would the occasional 17v from the charger have hurt anything?

Ryan, it might be good to go ahead and get the battery in to add some resilience to the cranking voltage, even when connected to a charger. And maybe then you can just use the little charger. Maybe get a spare set of plugs and put them in just to eliminate that variable.

I can come over after work some evening a day after you get the battery and plugs replaced and we can see if the timing light is detecting a spark now. I'm out of options unless someone sees something useful in the logs.

Not having the ground strap between the engine and the body is really not god. Yes, there could have been damage, usually there's smoke in the first few seconds of cranking.

17V is also not good, although real damage only starts to occur above 20V or so.

For starters, replace or clean the plugs, and check for spark.

I got new spark plugs and tried to test spark with a timing light. The timing light did not strobe off of cylinder one or three so it looks like neither driver is giving off a signal. However, there was a large backfire and a puff of smoke in the engine bay. I also took apart my MS2 to make sure something wasn't melted from the few times I tried to crank it without a ground strap on accident. Nothing seems out of place, melted, or burnt but I do not really know what I am looking at so I am going to upload the pictures.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424552165

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424552165

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/...psalq4qtsv.jpg

Attachment 184326

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424552165

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424552165

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424552165

I am completely out of ideas here and have no idea what could be going on. I have literally looked at every component of this spark system and come up with absolutely nothing.

Since you now know that the input signals are correct, the next step is to make sure your coil igniter is getting a signal. I think some timing lights will pick up the 5v signal? Otherwise you need to use a light (noid light) or an oscilloscope or something.
Use the megasquirt test mode so you don't have to crank the engine (eliminates movement/isolates the experiment).

If that's ok then check over your igniter/coil. Make sure the wiring is correct. Trace the grounding route to the igniter. Try different spark plugs/grounding points/spark plug wires.

If it's still not getting spark then try a different coil/igniter.

I'll figure out how to do this and see if anyone I know has these tools.

I have been over all of this wiring. Its all stock wiring and nothing looks out of place.

I have tried two sets of stock coils. One was a known good set when the car blew up. The other was a low mileage set from the donor engine that blew up but I do not know if they were good. I may have to have someone who is local let me borrow coils off of their running car to try.

AFAIK the coils just need a logic signal to spark. So In order to make sure they work, I would spark them manually and see if the strobe lights up.
That way you can tell if the problem is with the coils/strobe or with the logic (MS).

Wait, you are not getting spark on coils 1 and 3? But you are getting spark on 2 and 4?

No spark anywhere. He's only got two coils on the stock MSM system.

Check with the test mode. Don't use the timing light, get a few spark plugs, connect the coils and plug wires on those spark plugs (leave the hex section of the plugs resting on a good ground) and check for spark in each one.

Test mode revealed spark on all four cylinders. All four injectors also behaved normally. I am thinking I may have fucked up the mechanical timing really bad or something.

Well that's some better news!
It is odd that you're not getting spark while cranking. That indicates that your settings are not set in a way that makes the computer spark based on your cam/crank signals.
I would double check the MS spark/timing setup. I can't look over your log right now, but I think you can log the spark output signal? That would tell you if the MS is trying to spark.
If you haven't touched your settings and your log shows spark.... then I'd try to reload the firmware.

Its definitely mechanical timing. Here are some pictures to illustrate the problem. All of the exterior markings line up perfectly and I was able to verify that cylinder one was at TDC when it was suppose to be.

Attachment 184325

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424632436

Time to remove the valve cover for closer inspection.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1424632436

Well that is not right.....the intake cam should be pointing to the 9 O'clock postion and not the 12 O'clock position. How the fuck did that happen. If I remember correctly there is a guide pin and the cam gear can really only slide on one way. I need to take it off and figure out the problem.

Post up a picture of the cam gears.

Also...Fuck yeah man! That is a good sign, hopefully fixing this problem will get you up and running.

With VVT the cam gear should only be able to go on one way. I am not sure how you fucked that shit up to get it off like that. One 90-00 motors there are 3 holes that the guide pin could go in, so those make more sense of screwing off up the intake cam gear.

I don't know how it is on wrong to be honest. When I put it on the first time it was clear that it could only go on one way and I am pretty sure I got it on the guide pin. You would think if it wasn't on the guide pin that it would stick out a little bit but it is as far back as possible without these bolts on the back of the gear making contact with the head. I wasn't able to take it off on Sunday to check because I had some family stuff going on.

There was one bit that might need fixing that I have been thinking about. When we were taking the motor apart originally, Miata2fast was curious how the vvt mechanism worked so he decided to open it up. There was a bit of an oh shit moment but he put it back together and was pretty sure it was correct but I am not thinking I might need to reopen it and take a look. I'll have to analyze a parts diagram to make sure I get it back together correctly. Not sure if the cam could advance itself this much if it was assembled incorrectly but I won't know until I get it off.

I don't think Mazda makes a parts diagram for the inside of the VVT gear thing. You can only buy it fully assembled from Mazda. If you search on mt.net there are a few threads from people who have taken them apart and put them back together. At least we now know why it is not working.

The thread 18psi linked in my build thread has pictures of when he took his apart. I'll probably use that for reference.

I took one apart and documented for posterity:

https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...or-pics-80407/

Is the gear locked? you should not be able to spin the cam independent of the gear/belt

Hmm. 4 lobes inside.
It could have gone together 90 degrees out? Stranger things have happened.

If it was put back together 90* off I would be kind of impressed seeing as how the single large lobe also has a significantly larger space to fit in. No one knows but Troy! I do believe the gear is locked.

All I can do is guess. . I'm trying.

Not sure anymore, but didn't you at one point say there's no spark? Verified with a timing gun?
This would not be caused by the Camshaft- no matter how far off it may be.

Spark was verified in test mode. Timing light was not picking it up but I saw it with my eyes.

IT'S ALIVE!!!!! The physical cam alignment was indeed the problem. However, It appears as if something else is going on. We used the little dot mark to line it up as it was 90 degrees off of the slot mark on the cam gear. Every VVT timing picture we have looked at show that the markings I had originally used should have been correct. The VVT actuator can only bolt to the gear one way due to bolt spacing and the cam has to be seated on the peg due to spacing. I am not sure why mine runs perfectly while using the other gear mark.

You are doing it wrong.

From his build thread, he installed the cam gear ~90* off, which sounds right according to his issues.

I know. I was kidding with him. I was there and the one who found it, haha.