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Oh look, another scrub that can't tune

 
Old 01-31-2019, 08:52 PM
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Default Oh look, another scrub that can't tune

Dropped a NB1 engine into a 94 chassis. Refreshed all seals and new TB before I tossed the engine in. Wired it up according to the VVT Megathread using NA8 coolant/oil sensors and NB1 crank/cam/IACV/TPS sensors. Using an MS2 internally prewired for sequential. Downloaded a base tune from DIYauto for a 2000 car. Calibrated TPS, wired in a GM IAT sensor, ran the AFR data line/vacuum line to the MS, set req fuel(stock NB1 injectors).
Cam/crank/TPS signal seem good, MS picks them up and gets "sync" while cranking and running.
After a little playing with the VE table I can get it to start and idle for about 10-15 seconds, then it just dies. I've only touched the bottom 14 cells in the 20-26Kpa, 0-3500RPM area.
Idles at 20kph, but 2500-3000 RPM. Can not find any vacuum leak. If I lock timing at 10* to put a timing light on it, it dies immediately. If I drop the idle warm up duty, it dies. If I try to lean out the VE table in the cells its idling in, it dies.
Wideband signal is all over the place, spiking from 9:1-15:1AFR. The car has not even been running steady more then 20-30 seconds at a time, so I'm unsure how accurate its readings are in the first place. Its an AEM, older unit that has sat on a shelf for 2-3 years and I'm unsure if I've just repeatedly flooded it, or if its bad and giving bad readings.
I've tried playing with both Warm Up Enrichment and Idle Warmup Duty to try and get a lower, leaner, stable idle, with no success. Outside air temp is ~50*F, hottest I've gotten the coolant to is ~160*F.

I've attached two logs- "its kinda alive" is my best run so far, had it going for about 20 seconds before I accidently bumped something on the VE table and it went all lumpy and PW went crazy before I shut it down.(reverted that tune obviously).
Second log(-15 timing) is me setting the timing offset to -15 in the thoughts that perhaps the high idle was a really far offset from TDC. Instead it just wanted to instantly die and only rapidly stabbing the throttle open would keep it going for a few seconds(apparently not the issue).
I've been attempting to find a steady idle so I can at least get a timing light on it, burp the cooling system, and proceed to start VEAL, but the whole "just idle please" part has eluded me for the past three days.
Is there a critical setting/graph I've overlooked? Why is my idle so high? Why does it die if I make any changes to VE? Why are my tuning abilities so garbage?
Attached Files
File Type: msq
CurrentTune.msq (118.6 KB, 23 views)
File Type: msl
Its kinda alive.msl (285.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: msl
-15 timeing.msl (138.2 KB, 9 views)
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Wingman703 View Post
Dropped a NB1 engine into a 94 chassis. Refreshed all seals and new TB before I tossed the engine in. Wired it up according to the VVT Megathread...

... a lower, leaner, stable idle, with no success.
A few things before the more well versed pop in here...

Nb1 doesn't have vvt
Lower does not mean leaner assuming you're talking about AFR...

I dont have my laptop with me so I cant check your msq or datalog...but what's the afr doing for the first 10-15 seconds it's alive?
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Old 01-31-2019, 09:56 PM
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Did you make sure to set up the right MAP sensor in megasquirt? It's showing you have the big boy MPXH6400 MAP sensor and MPX4115 baro sensor.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:13 PM
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Im not sure you should have loaded a 2000 basemap... Since your car is 94 but im no expert.

Did you tell megasquirt you were running a wideband?
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Old 01-31-2019, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wherestheboost View Post
A few things before the more well versed pop in here...

Nb1 doesn't have vvt
Lower does not mean leaner assuming you're talking about AFR...

I dont have my laptop with me so I cant check your msq or datalog...but what's the afr doing for the first 10-15 seconds it's alive?
I realize this, but the TPS/IACV/Cam/crank wiring is all the same. Minus the VVT control solenoid. I ment lower as in RPM, as my "idle" is 2500RPM. My AFR claims to be running pig rich, but if I try to pull fuel out of the VE table, it refuses to start or dies immediately.
Originally Posted by festersays View Post
Did you make sure to set up the right MAP sensor in megasquirt? It's showing you have the big boy MPXH6400 MAP sensor and MPX4115 baro sensor.
I was unaware that I would need to make changes to the MAP sensors? This is a PNP unit not a DIY unit, I did no firmware loading. How would I go about making changes/calibrating MAP sensors?
Originally Posted by Marioshi View Post
Im not sure you should have loaded a 2000 basemap... Since your car is 94 but im no expert.

Did you tell megasquirt you were running a wideband?
I initially loaded a base for a 94 and made the ignition/fuel changes for the engine, but I couldn't even get a rough idle going. Loading a 2000 base made much healthier cranking sounds and fired a few times right off the bat. MS knows I have a wideband- I set it to WB in the initial "new project" pages, and have the WB reading in the MS gauge dashpad. If there are changes past that I need to make I am unaware of them.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:11 AM
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I...don't know what you did to your tables compared to the default...

But I suggest going back to basemap at least for the WUE, ASE, and especially the open loop idle duties. At 124F you've got 154% enrichment...and at 180F you're at 124%. Same oddities for your ASE curve.

You're MAP is off - because when your car's off, it's at ~16kPa. Should be closer to 100kPa. Do you really have 2 independent sensors?

It also looks like you've got something screwy with your wideband signal.

General recommendation is restart with the basemap. Undo everything you've done so far. Something's not right. That's all I've got so far. Gotta work on my own issues

Edit: If I'm not mistaken, you need to match your wiring, and not the engine. Something's wrong. The VEs that are being executed are rapidly oscillating between 38 and 136 and everything in between.
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wherestheboost View Post
I...don't know what you did to your tables compared to the default...

But I suggest going back to basemap at least for the WUE, ASE, and especially the open loop idle duties. At 124F you've got 154% enrichment...and at 180F you're at 124%. Same oddities for your ASE curve.

You're MAP is off - because when your car's off, it's at ~16kPa. Should be closer to 100kPa. Do you really have 2 independent sensors?

It also looks like you've got something screwy with your wideband signal.

General recommendation is restart with the basemap. Undo everything you've done so far. Something's not right. That's all I've got so far. Gotta work on my own issues

Edit: If I'm not mistaken, you need to match your wiring, and not the engine. Something's wrong. The VEs that are being executed are rapidly oscillating between 38 and 136 and everything in between.
Last time I called DIYAutoTune about an NA8 -> NA6 swap I think they said that the basemap should match wiring harness and fueling should match actual engine/injectors. Not sure if the NA8 senors used means more customization is needed though...
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Old 02-01-2019, 07:43 AM
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Christ, I hadn't even noticed my MAP was off. I know it was showing 100kph when I first started a few days ago... I'll have to go back and examine all the setting changes I've made.
I'll be honest, I'm unsure that the year basemaps make that big a difference. With the NA basemap, I reset all the fueling and ignition settings anyway(to account for the BP4W swap) the only differences were in the VE/spark/warmup tables.
The warmup enrichment spikes were me messing with things trying to get it to run for more then 15 seconds.
I'll reset basemaps agian and see if that gets me anywhere.
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Old 02-02-2019, 12:33 AM
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:03 PM
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So I'll be honest here
Not really 100% sure what exact change I made that did the trick, but she's running now. My changes:
Matched both the MAP and Baro sensors to the correct one(MPX4250)
Relocated vacuum line. There was something really weird going on with the last port I used... I'm wondering if I didn't plug it into the VICs port by accident. It would initially read ambient, but when cranking would drop in KpH and not return to ambiant. But if I then unplugged it from the MS it would return to ambiant. Weird. Its now currently in the "spare" port by the TB, I guess I'll actually T it into the FPR reference port like everyone says...
Reloaded DIY's base for a 94/95 and made sure it was calibrated for my coolant sensors and GM IAT.
Pulled a little fuel out of everything anywhere near the used cells.
And yeah. My AFR reading into MS is hella wack. Actual AFR gauge reads properly, MS still jumps around like a madman. I'll need to do more digging into the calibrations and grounding of the unit to solve that before I can do some autotune.

I now have a surging idle caused by the IAC valve. If I put the valve in test mode and 75% duty it holds a perfect 950RPM, but if I drop it out of test it does a "surge" every 4-5 seconds. Played around with various IAC tables and couldn't get it to go away, any pointers there? Only thing I'm realizing now after the fact is that I still have my timing locked at 10* from setting timing but I don't think this is going to be my cause.
First log is just after the initial start when I was still playing with fuel/IAC values to knock down the 3K idle, second is after it had fully warmed, restarted, and the surge began.
Attached Files
File Type: msq
CurrentTune.msq (118.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: msl
runs.msl (1.90 MB, 7 views)
File Type: msl
surgeing idle.msl (128.5 KB, 7 views)
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:36 PM
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Turn off EGO control. Fix wideband.

Spark is stuck at 10 degrees.

Your PWM idle valve is jumping from 75 to 25 for some reason at each event which causes your VE table to jump from 43 to 65.

Did you even do the test for your idle duty valve? Is it really fully closed at 75, and fully open at 25?
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Old 02-09-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wherestheboost View Post
Turn off EGO control. Not on Fix wideband. Working on it, as stated

Spark is stuck at 10 degrees. Already noted this and the cause, fixed

Your PWM idle valve is jumping from 75 to 25 for some reason at each event which causes your VE table to jump from 43 to 65. Yes, your restateing the issues I already stated, unsure why CL/IAC is kicking on like that

Did you even do the test for your idle duty valve? Close values yes, open values eyeballed Is it really fully closed at 75, and fully open at 25?75 is fully closed, 25 is just in the(very close)ballpark
Responses in BOLD. I don't know why my IAC is kicking open peridicly. I see the "CL idle" tag at the bottom turning green when this event happens(doesn't happen in open loop). Again, its 100% an IAC setting as it doesn't occur while in test mode. Something is triggering or causing it to activate.
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:51 PM
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Your MSQ says EGO control is on. Unless you've changed it since you've posted.

Your realtime BARO port is SPARADC? Is that true?

Did you tune the IAC valve the correct way to get the min/max values? (start at zero, etc). That's all I've got. Good luck!
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Old 02-10-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wherestheboost View Post
Your MSQ says EGO control is on. Unless you've changed it since you've posted.

Your realtime BARO port is SPARADC? Is that true?

Did you tune the IAC valve the correct way to get the min/max values? (start at zero, etc). That's all I've got. Good luck!
Oops, apologies, I was confusing EGO with VEAL.
Uhhh I'll go with yes on BARO? I hadn't touched that setting and if it's different I haven't the slightest idea how to check.
The closed values yes. 75 is ~950RPM, bumping it to 76 has no effect, 74 is ~1000RPM. Open value is just estimated. 25 causes an idle at 3000RPM and I haven't played with it past that out of respect to my neighbors(muffler leak+revving to 3000K= loud raspy noises). I will play with it further once I have the AFR and exhaust issues resolved.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Wingman703 View Post
Relocated vacuum line. There was something really weird going on with the last port I used... I'm wondering if I didn't plug it into the VICs port by accident. It would initially read ambient, but when cranking would drop in KpH and not return to ambiant. But if I then unplugged it from the MS it would return to ambiant. Weird. Its now currently in the "spare" port by the TB, I guess I'll actually T it into the FPR reference port like everyone says....
pretty sure one of the ports near the TB has a check valve in it.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lsdlsd88 View Post
pretty sure one of the ports near the TB has a check valve in it.
?Que?
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:05 PM
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This car will cause me to prematurely go bald, I swear.

So after those two runs above, I found oil dripping out of the trans bellhousing. RMS was leaking. Pulled trans, replaced RMS, replaced trans, tried to fire it up and... nothing. I can no longer get the car to start despite ZERO tune changes.
I've pulled(and replaced) every spark plug and confirmed I have spark on all cylinders.
I've peered into the cylinders during cranking and sniffed the tailpipe to confirm I have fuel.
I tore down the entire front of the engine to make sure my cam timing hadn't slipped.
I rolled my Ranger behind the car and put jumpers on the battery to make sure it had a steady voltage supply.
I've tried both dumping massive amounts of fuel at it, and pulling tons of fuel out of it(VE, cranking PW, ASE, WUE) with no success.
Opening/closing the throttle with both the pedal or IAC values have no effect.
I know my spark offset timing is dialed in, I set it with a timing light when the car was running.

I'm at a complete loss as to why it went from firing with some effort to not catching at all. Anyone see anything blatantly obvious the logs point out that I've missed, either mechanical or software related? Is it normal for cranking KpA to remain in the 80-90KpA range when cranking?
Wideband reading in MS is still screwy. Right now I'm leaning towards a bad outputting controller(AEM), or interference on the unshielded signal wire as no voltage corrections bring it anything close to what I would expect and the reading jumps around even when not cranking.
Attached Files
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CurrentTune.msq (118.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: msl
attempt1.msl (287.0 KB, 6 views)
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:54 PM
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Ground straps?
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:31 PM
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One on the rear of the PPF, secure. One on the intake(where the O2 is now grounded), secure. One from block to frame by exhaust, secure. Did not remove any when I pulled the trans.
Wouldn't a lack of ground not even allow me to crank anyway?
E/ I say this, and only then remember the numerous relays you burned out when your PPF ground wasn't attached.

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Old 02-18-2019, 05:10 AM
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If ECU power drops below 10v while cranking it may not fire even though it is turning over. Ground was on my mind for personal reasons, lol.
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