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Old 04-29-2007, 10:17 PM   #1
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Default PnP vs. parallel wired ('94)

Getting close to the purchase of the ECU for my turbo build, and I've decided on MS. I want to get some opinions (esp. the guys from DIYAutotune) on whether I'd be better off wiring up a v3.0 in parallel ($400 + GM IAT + tuning cable, figure $450) to my stock ECU to grab idle, fuel, and spark, or waiting for the full PnP and spending an extra $250+ ($700 is the number I keep hearing for the PNP). I'm really not quite sure what that extra $250, which would pay for a full stainless upgrade on the exhaust system, would gain me on the ECU.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:26 PM   #2
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I'm all about saving money and doing things on my own which is why i built my own but seeing how you budget'd $400 for the ECU I take it you're gonna buy prebuilt instead of DIY. If I was gonna go prebuilt, I would go full PnP replacement. When you weigh the option of PnP versus stainless, i would prefer the stainless over a few hours spent wiring it in parallel.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:46 PM   #3
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PnP is nice for those who are afraid of MS. I'd save the $400 and do the wiring myself again in a heartbeat. I would also buy prebuilt again. It's only about $90 to save yourself 10hrs of tedious soldering.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:51 PM   #4
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999- AL
Don't let him scare you about the soldering unless you really don't want to do it. It took me 5-6 hours to finish the MS and about 40 min to do the STIM as it was my first project. I enjoy tedious, repetive, boring things like that though once in a while so I didn't mind.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:51 PM   #5
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Well I think if your are planning on geting the board built by DIY then it will definately be worth the extra 250$ for the pnp solution. You also want to figure in 200$ for a wideband o2 sensor. While it is not needed it makes things a whole lot easier.

As for if you are planning on wiring it in to save money you should just build ms yourself. It isnt as hard as it looks and I can definately help you out a good bit since I am running a 94. I can also give you the correct wiring print out for ms.

I just did the math and if you do it all yourself if it comes to about 450$ in parts to do it all correctly not including random little tidbits that you might need. I would go with the DIY route personally. It isnt as bad as it seems and I can help you with any questions you have along the way.
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Old 04-29-2007, 10:52 PM   #6
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yeah, I'm biased, 10 minutes into soldering the board mods, i start spazzin out. i hate soldering delicate stuff.
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:15 PM   #7
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the build isn't that bad if you have time to do it. I'm half way through mine, but I've been too busy to be able to finish it.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:18 AM   #8
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Building it myself isn't really an option I'm considering. I would rather have someone who knows what the hell they're doing build my ECU instead of trying to hackjob it myself. The decision is between a pre-built, pre-modded parallel install vs. a PnP setup. What do you GET out of the $250 extra you're spending over parallel-wiring it? I figure I could handle building a harness to include idle, fuel, and spark wires, vampire-clipping the stock ECU's inputs, doing some bullet connectors for the outputs, and installing the IAT sensor in the manifold. Is it more complicated than that? I've already got an Innovate wideband.

I was really hoping the PnP setup would come in at like $500-$550. It'd be a no-brainer at that price, but aside from the development costs and the ease of use, I really can't see what you're paying $250 for.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:58 AM   #9
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I think the price is fair, depends how much you value your time I guess (and if you enjoy building and wiring it in etc). If you buy the PnP one you can just remove the ST SIGN fuse, plug it straight in, fire up the car and drive to the dyno with a decent base map. If it doesn't work, you can speak to the guys at DIY.
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:21 AM   #10
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I'm going to have to tune it myself since it'll be installed alongside the turbo, so the base map doesn't help me a whole lot. It doesn't seem like anything I couldn't pull from these forums (idle maps, initial fuel/spark maps for a 1.8 T25, etc). I'm not saying the price is ridiculous, but I am questioning whether it's worth it in my particular case.
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:27 AM   #11
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A base map will be the least of your worries. Startup/cranking enrichments and whatnot are already established and will need little if any adjustment. While a basic fuel map will get you running and datalogging/autotuning quickly with your LC1.
In your particular case, i say if you have the cash flow to do it. They might even have a special group buy price through miata roadster here initially as well. I have no clue on that, i just know there may be a group buy through them soon to get the market established with these.
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:51 AM   #12
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For those of you who have gone through the hassle of discovering the startup enrichments, etc., would you pay $250 for the information?

On that note, if it's just a set of numbers, why hasn't someone figured it out and posted it here? If they are different from car to car, how is DIY doing it?
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Old 04-30-2007, 02:58 AM   #13
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errr.... it's been figured out and posted, look in the settings thread. you're not paying $250 for the base map at all, if that were the case, some folks on here owe me some money.....
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:40 AM   #14
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DIY said that once the PnP reaches the market they would be more than happy to release their .msq for people to use and check out. Megasquirt is what it is because people share, DIY will most likely keep that open source going. I'm sure you would find that many of their settings will be somewhat similar to people's on this board.
Maybe they nailed close loop idle though, that would be awesome.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:14 AM   #15
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I know on the 1.6 they nailed idle perfectly. I am not sure if it is open or closed loop though.

As for why it is $250 more you really need to see it to understand. The craftmenship on it is amazing. It is also using newer hardware then you will not get if you just order a normal one prebuilt. It is using board version 3.57 while they only currently sell up to board 3.0. The board for the female end of the ecu connector is set up specfically for the miata and how they hook it to the main board is a good design.

When Kingofleet was selling his PNP MS on here he was asking for $550. They are asking for $150 more then that and their design is alot better and comes with support. With theirs at the end of the day to switch back to the stock ecu to sell the car is a piece of cake to.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:16 AM   #16
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for saving what 10-20 hours for an extra $250 to simply: pull back carpet, remove (5) 10mm bolts & cover, pull two connectors, pull the ecu, replace the MS, plug in two connectors, route and plug on the boost/vac line, replace cover and 10mm nuts, remove (1) fuse, turn key.....I'd highly consider it.


but I'm a cheap bastard, so I'd probably still rock the built MS.
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Old 04-30-2007, 11:33 AM   #17
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There's really not a whole lot we can add here to what's been said.... it's a very slick solution, and the reason most people have typically gone parallel instead of full PNP in their DIY setups has been due to some of 'details' that the stock ECU controls, that typically haven been more difficult to figure out how to control with the MS. We've nailed closed loop idle, and we've nailed AC control, on the 1.6l cars, those were the two reasons most people would keep the stock ECU around in parallel. It's not needed with the MSPNP solution.

So then we added launch control, input for KnockSenseMS, two ways to bring in a signal from a wideband o2 sensor (not two widebands, just two ways to wire it in to give you options, either the stock o2 signal wire, or straight to the box). There's a couple other goodies in there too.

Then we wanted to take the case to the next level too... sure it's under the floorboard by default... but a local Miata racer that's running one took one look at the case and quickly said there's no way he's hiding it-- he's putting a lexan window in the floorpan so he can show it off. We may look into offering some sort of extension harness so that it can easily be moved behind the seat similar to the 94-95 location so that it can be displayed if people would like to...

Don't like the red lettering? Prefer blue? Yellow? Green? We'll be offering kits to swap out the backlay to a few different colors, and in the meantime doing it yourself isn't that hard-- it's roughly a 6" square piece of lexan and the super-thin 2-sided 3M tape.

Basically... there are two options now... the DIY option is still there for sure, and of course we'll share our maps. Note some things are different (like closed loop idle settings as the hardware is different). But now we've also got a very slick, very polished, Plug-N-Play solution also-- you get to pick your poison -- either way you've got our support to get your Miata 'squirted...

BTW... our Miata won't be staying N/A for too much longer either... we'll the '91 won't. It's time to buy a 94-95, that one may stay N/A for a while.

On second thought, maybe I did have a few things to add...
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:06 PM   #18
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Tom and I are both rocking megasquirt and going to the dyno on the 12th...so I can't wait to see how it improves the powerband on our turbo applications. His upgraded from EMB/ OEM ECU, mine upgraded from the OEM ECU.
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Old 04-30-2007, 01:19 PM   #19
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Hell I am considering selling my current MS and buying the PnP version. I like the neat and tidiness of the PnP.
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Old 04-30-2007, 04:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoundSoul View Post
There's really not a whole lot we can add here to what's been said.... it's a very slick solution, and the reason most people have typically gone parallel instead of full PNP in their DIY setups has been due to some of 'details' that the stock ECU controls, that typically haven been more difficult to figure out how to control with the MS. We've nailed closed loop idle, and we've nailed AC control, on the 1.6l cars, those were the two reasons most people would keep the stock ECU around in parallel. It's not needed with the MSPNP solution.

So then we added launch control, input for KnockSenseMS, two ways to bring in a signal from a wideband o2 sensor (not two widebands, just two ways to wire it in to give you options, either the stock o2 signal wire, or straight to the box). There's a couple other goodies in there too.

Then we wanted to take the case to the next level too... sure it's under the floorboard by default... but a local Miata racer that's running one took one look at the case and quickly said there's no way he's hiding it-- he's putting a lexan window in the floorpan so he can show it off. We may look into offering some sort of extension harness so that it can easily be moved behind the seat similar to the 94-95 location so that it can be displayed if people would like to...

Don't like the red lettering? Prefer blue? Yellow? Green? We'll be offering kits to swap out the backlay to a few different colors, and in the meantime doing it yourself isn't that hard-- it's roughly a 6" square piece of lexan and the super-thin 2-sided 3M tape.

Basically... there are two options now... the DIY option is still there for sure, and of course we'll share our maps. Note some things are different (like closed loop idle settings as the hardware is different). But now we've also got a very slick, very polished, Plug-N-Play solution also-- you get to pick your poison -- either way you've got our support to get your Miata 'squirted...

BTW... our Miata won't be staying N/A for too much longer either... we'll the '91 won't. It's time to buy a 94-95, that one may stay N/A for a while.

On second thought, maybe I did have a few things to add...
Awesome stuff. This is really the stuff I was looking for; what the DIY setup ADDS over a standard parallel wired setup. Launch control, knock sensor input, closed-loop idle settings, etc. starts to justify the price.

Someone mentioned the fact that the MSPNP comes with version 3.57 hardware whereas a prebuilt would only be 3.0. What does 3.57 get me over version 3.0?

Jerry, do you guys have a timeline for releasing the '94-95 setup? That may end up being a big factor. If you want someone to guinea-pig it on a turbo setup...
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