poormxdad's (as directed) new noob questions thread
 

Gents,

I was directed by 18psi to start a consolidated thread where I can put all of my new dumbass questions. I apologize to the group for getting all emotional. It's just that sometimes, this stuff doesn't make any sense, such as when I found WOT Target Voltage was working even though it was set to a value under the Alternator Control pulldown to be disabled. Or, what could the possible purpose be for MLV NOT to automatically load the tune from which the log was made? Or why when I compare tunes in TunerStudio, I only have a choice of excepting all the changes in the other tune, or no changes?

I reserve the right to post in other, existing or new threads, but will try to restrict dumbass questions to this thread.

Question(s) follow...

Over Run Fuel Cut Settings
 

We've had a couple of rainy days and the car is up on jackstands. I was going through the tune and found this...

If I have Ignition Timing Transition Cut set to Off, but Ignition Timing Transition Return set to On (see the OFF_ON .jpg) the Ignition Timing During Over-Run(deg) box is not greyed out. Both have to be set to Off (see the OFF_OFF .jpg) to grey out that box. Can someone tell me what the functionality difference is between the OFF_ON and ON_ON screenshots?

How do the settings look otherwise?

Oh, BTW, why would the default setting for Ignition Timing During Over-Run(deg) be 36 degrees if the Tool Tip says it should be set to some small value?

Thanks,

Was the question too noob or too difficult?

I'm not feeling the usual Trubonet love...

Question 2: Rich AFRs after slight lift
 

I've been told my VE Table is rich, but I think it's pretty close when conditions are right.

If I'm driving on a very slight uphill grade where I have to keep just a little pedal in to maintain a constant speed, the AFRs seem fine. But if I lift just an RCH to keep my spacing on the car in front of me, the AFR might go into the low 13s. If I lift just a little tiny bit more, the AFR goes into the 10s. The log is on the highway, driving steady in normal, heavy VA I-64 traffic. I hit the spacebar when I thought I was at a proper, constant AFR. You can see the dip shortly afterwards. When this happens, I hear the recirc valve chuffing, like it's somewhere between open and closed. This prevents me from using VEAL because TS pulls shitloads of fuel when the AFR gets that rich, and when I put that little bit of throttle back in, suddenly I'm in the 16s with a little load. It's damned impossible to NOT get into a place where I have to lift slightly while autotuning.

Is the recirc valve bad? It's the metal version that comes with the Rotrex kit. Seems pretty well built. Is there anything I can do with the tune if the valve is not bad? Am I worrying too much?

Thanks,

Are you saying that you get a rich condition for a split second if you take your foot off the go pedal? Does it do it momentarily or hold at that?

(Haven't looked at logz)

Do you have "over run fuel cut" on? If you do, I don't have any other suggestions.

I am probably wrong, but I thought the VE table is just the correction factor for each load/rpm cell that the ecu uses to hit the target AFR in the corresponding cell. That's why autotune VE works. It calculates the correction factor to hit your AFR targets set in the AFR table.

Again, I'm most likely wrong.

Rich on lift is a wall wetting phenomenon. That is what AE and EAE does, as well as fix the opposite issue, lean on throttle press.

VE is for steady state. When running VEAL, it is important to drive as smoothly as possible. Y8S wrote some kind of filter that makes VEAL ignore data points when TPSDot (IIRC) is outside narrow limits. You'll have to google. But really, one or two bad points does not a huge effect have.

Keep making VEAL harder and harder as VE gets closer and closer. Then the little perturbations (look it up) mean less and less.

To Thump: look up VE, see what it stands for, and realize that it is not a correction factor, but a primary driver in Speed / Density tuning. Otherwise, yes, VEAL operates on the VE values.

Sir,

Are you saying that EAE is (or might be) functioning? Although I have it OFF, I have proven that although some feature might look disabled, it is not necessarily so. Go here https://www.miataturbo.net/mspnp-55/...o-start-92618/ and see Post 18.

MLV doesn't seem to have a way to check EAE functionality.

Thanks,

I'm telling you that the actions you are seeing are normal. After you get your VE table finished, then you address the lean tip-in, and rich let-off with AE.

And MLV will show EAE action, if you ask it to. At least it will when you have it turned on.

EAE and AE are used to combat wall wetting, if EAE is not turned on then it's unlikely its activating, but regular AE will be if you have it enabled. You can monitor AE% in MegaLogViewer, and you can see how big your PW spike as a result.

If VE is tuned correctly for non-AE driving then AE/EAE is used to counter the effects of wall wetting (and fuel sucked from walls) to maintain stable AFRs. If your AFRs are not stable when you drop the throttle but the cells are good under normal driving then AE/EAE is not tuned correctly.

I beleive y8s AE VEAL filtering is found here: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...97/#post933498
There are other mentions of it over at msextra as well. Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA) ? Help with Analyze Live filter please... (View topic)

Show me. I honestly can't find it, but it's probably my fault.

There you go again. You don't need to know about EAE until you get the VE table tuned. When you have a good VE table, then we can move to other things.

I humbly disagree and ask you throw me another bone. I believe my VE Table is fine, especially in the area I logged. If you think that dip in the log looks like something EAE would do, I need to confirm it isn't actually working. I fight that dip in most driving conditions, and I believe you when you say that is what it looks like.

On 20 April, Phil at DIY confirmed I had found a flaw in the way they disable WOT TPS% Alternator Control in the user interface. So I am not 100% certain Wall Wetting AE is off, even though it says it's Off. I don't believe in my noobness I have found the only menu item that is faulty. That's why the Air Force has developmental testing followed by operational testing. Crewdogs always do something the developers didn't count on.

Thanks,

I can do that tonight.

I'm not sure you yet understand what I'm saying, however. I'm NOT saying that EAE would tend to cause what you are observing, but that it exists to correct what you are observing . As pointed out by ManiaLachy, and by me, you are observing a natural phenomenon of an intake manifold.

I did misunderstand. However, pre-Rotrex a slight lift would usually bring leaner AFRs. I know the VE table needs work in the 2900 to 3400 cruise area, but that dip makes it very difficult to tune.

I'm talking very slight movements of the pedal, but it always seems to include a change in the sound of the recirculation valve. It happens in fourth gear trying to hold 45 mph in traffic if I lift a little. At 35 mph, she appears to be in a transition point for the valve where even holding a constant slight load has the valve oscillating rapidly between open and closed. It''s worse now that I have installed the 85mm pulley.

I have nearly zero deceleration leanment under AE.

Thanks for your patience,

The EAE choices are only available on MLV when EAE was on during logging. In fact I think it has to be on when logging begins.

I don't know anything about SC recirculation valves.

I have finally had a chance to review your tune and log, so I'll give you my thoughts. Note, I'm learning as I go, I'm no professional or expert and my tune isn't perfect yet either, but I do spend quite a bit of time looking at my logs and wondering why something is doing what it's doing.

I don't think your issue is anything to do with AE. The rich condition you're describing and which occurs after your mark isn't a blip, it's sustained. And when it occurs you aren't making a quick withdraw from throttle, tpsDOT barely registers and your TPS decreases only slightly. If it were due to AE corrections the condition would be a temporary AFR change which then stabilises out. I simply believe you're rich in low load (<50 kpa) and medium RPM (3500-4500RPM). I can see you've already leaned out some cells this area compared to the cells around it in your VE, I don't think it's enough.

Take a look for yourself to see if you agree. Apply this custom search filter in MLV (go to Search > Expression Search)
Don't assume the cause of the issue simply by driving situation. ie:
Sure, that raises a flag for an issue you need to investigate, but it's not the change in throttle or the recirc valve that causes the issue, its the drop in MAP to an area of the VE table that is too rich. Spend some time driving in this region of the map purposefully and you should see the same AFRs, whether increasing throttle or decreasing. (for an example of increasing throttle use the above search filter but add in &&TPSdot > 0)

I agree your AFRs seem pretty good in general cruise, but overall your tune is rich, just look at you Min and Max AFR 1 Error readings; Max is 101%, it only ever has to increase fueling by 1%; but Min is 90% the maximum allowed by your ego settings - it's trying to pull as much fuel as you gave it authority too and I bet it would pull more if you set your ego authority higher. Search your log for places where your error is at it's Min value, those are your rich areas.

When "conditions are right" is just a small part of your VE table that's tuned correctly, a lot of it looks rich to me according to your logs.

This situation could be easily taken care of by VEAL, set it to Hard though, so it makes small changes. Get into cruise, then slowly let off the throttle, ease it off until your foot is off the pedal and TPS is 0, and the MAP will drop slowly all the way down to overrun (~15-20kpa). Do this from a few RPM points (you may need to change down a gear to hit a higher RPM at the same speed, or just find an empty road) you want to hit everything from say 2000-6000rpm.

In fact I would VEAL your whole table (outside of overrun and idle). Use the y8s filter I mentioned in my previous post (to avoid AE interference), set Min Load to ~30 (to avoid overrun tuning) and lock your idle cells. Don't try to VEAL on your daily commute, do it purposefully, go find an empty long straight flat road (industrial parks on a Sunday morning are perfect for this!). In the VEAL tab you want to make sure all of that top little map in the Status tab goes green to ensure you've hit all your cells. Apply the changes and go through this process a few times. Then log your drive home.

I hope I've made some sense here. If not or if I've made a mistake I'm sure someone will smack me down for being a n00b (I've got it coming). Something not clear? Just ask, it's your thread.

I appreciate your time on this. According to DNMakinson, I misunderstood the sentence below, but it does read as if AE and EAE cause rich on lift via wall wetting. That's why I wanted to make sure EAE is actually not working.

I really do not know for sure it doesn't have anything to do with AE. The car is up on jackstands right now, but when I can get her back out, I plan to play with the decel enleanment numbers just for grins.

*NOTE: Another head scratcher. The tool tip for AE states there should be "a 0 0 point in the curve so that when TPS is not changing, no additional fuel is added". However, the default curve does not come with a 0 0 point.

Although MAP is dropping into lower load cells just as you say, I do think there's more to it. I've attached a pic of the VE table after autotuning for a few minutes under the same conditions the log was taken. Going back to the dip I pointed out in the log, the AFR goes down to 10.3. Let's assume I want 14.7. I should pull about 30% fuel from those lower load cells at the bottom of the dip. That's exactly what VEAL did. Problem is, when I get into those cells VEAL leaned out under conditions where I need a little positive throttle input to maintain speed, let's say the speed limit went down and I'm now in the 2900 rpm/50 load cell, the AFR is now up in the high 16s.

The dip condition happens no matter what speed I'm at if I lift a little.

Thanks again,

I'm telling you - this issue has nothing to do with AE. Your AE might not be perfect, but it's insignificant and your VE table is the bigger problem

AE and EAE are corrections that occur when the throttle position changes rapidly. As I understand it, if the throttle is shut and you go to 50% as fast as your foot will travel the ECU doesn't have time to wait for the MAP to register then inject the fuel as there is a small delay and if we didn't compensate for the influx of air we'd be momentarily lean, and this feels jerky to the driver. So, instead we tune these corrections to momentarily inject additional fuel to compensate. Similarly, on a snap shut throttle the ECU doesn't have time to register the MAP change then reduce the fuel, so if you like you can program it to pull fuel to avoid a rich condition. Decel isn't as much of an issue as accel though. Decel is really the final piece of the puzzle.

The key thing here is that this is a momentary compensation. It is not persistent. And it is not your problem in this case. If it were we'd see a rich spike shortly after a large dip in TPSDot, but we don't see this large dip in TPSDot at all.

Let's bust out your log and some bad MSPaint skills.

Refer to poormxdad_1.jpg
The yellow circle is you in cruise with nice AFRs, EGO is at 100% and Error is insignificant. The red circles (top and bottom graphs) show a change in TPS from a sharp increase in TPSDot and the resulting AE compensation. Note that when the TPSDot is negative, there is no AE compensation, also note your AFRs aren't massively affected by these changes, the changes occur ~.5s later than the event, you go a little rich from your AE injection indicating maybe a little too much is being added - don't worry about it right now. Also note that your AFRs are nice and consistent while you're at 3700RPM @ 70kpa.

Refer to poormxdad_2.jpg
This is a moment later, you're at a lower throttle and a lower MAP, and your rich like Scrooge McDuck. EGO is trying to pull fuel, your TPSDot is insigificant and AE is doing nothing. At 3800RPM @ 55kpa your VE map is simply rich.

Anytime we see your MAP drop low, we see your AFRs go rich. It's a consistent trend in your log.

I'd advise you to try to log low MAP driving, let's say between 35-60kpa. Get a friend to look at what's happening in TS while you drive if you need to and he can tell you if you're high or not. Small throttle openings on flat ground should do it though, and hold that position - we want to capture that MAP steadily for as long as possible. This should more fully illustrate the situation.

I like to left foot brake and balance the throttle if I'm having trouble getting to a specific load cell.

I was convinced there was something not right about the recirc valve. Although I have done routine maintenance on it twice during the off seasons since installing the Rotrex kit, this time I really went to town. I polished the crap outta the brass piston and the aluminum bore, and gave both a light coat of Rotella T6. I replaced all the O-rings I could source, leaving only the two on the shank of the banjo bolt. I greased those and confirmed they sealed, and greased the rest of the O-rings. I teflon taped the threads on the banjo bolt, and greased the threads on the ports and end cap. I tightened everything up and reinstalled it.

The engine behavior is completely different. The dip when I lift slightly is gone. The chuffing sound when I'm trying to hold 35 mph in traffic is gone. She seems stronger on the low end, but she also needs some tuning. When I first thought there was something not quite right, I checked every connection and checked for vacuum leaks. I never found anything wrong, so I'm thinking the piston wasn't moving smoothly and completely through the bore during small changes in MAP. However, I'm just guessing.

Thanks,

Reference the files you attached above.

Above 70kPa, you are using no EGO, and your AFR's are slightly richer than target, but steady. If you go below 70, then EGO begins. It does weird things. I'm thinking due to "simple" correction, which I've never tried. It adjusts in 1% steps, as it should, pulling fuel and moving AFR toward your targets. Then, usually when it gets to your 10% limit, it jumps straight back to 100%? Sometimes sooner. I cannot discern what causes what I'm going to call a "reset".

EDIT: From the source code: /* Simple correction is just a simple up-and-down oscillate around the target correction

So, Yeah go to PID, not simple. If you look at the instructions, they hint that "Simple" works well for Narrow Band. /EDIT

I think I would turn EGO off, or use PID control. See if using PID (whatever settings) makes the EGO act sensibly. In your case, with rich VE, it should go down to your max of -10% and just stay there. Try it at 3000 RPM and 65 kPa, assuming you have not changed anything else except the control method.

I'm not sure why you are limiting EGO to 70kPa and 50% throttle.

You need to continue tuning your VE table as you are still running rich. In your log, EGO enriches your mix only for one brief moment. All the rest of the time that it is active, it is removing fuel.

Yes to all. Now that I'm hopeful I figured out the issue with the recirc valve, I need to take a fresh stab at the VE Table. I turned EGO off and did a little autotuning. I was more interested in driving her around, but it was quickly apparent things had changed for the better. Unfortunately, I had not put in that custom filter ManiacLachy had provided earlier.

Here's the current tune and a log from after rebuilding the recirc valve.

Thanks,

Gentlemen,

I humbly request some of you smart guys take a look at my tune and log. The car behaves differently now that the recirc valve was rebuilt. I used the Custom Filter provided by y8s. ManiacLachy's script (above) has some syntax errors.

EGO was Off. The autotuning I've done shows more places where it added fuel than where VEAL took it away. One thing I noticed is that ORFC seems to kick in quickly, even though I have a 2sec delay. It also seems to kick in between gear changes during hard pulls. Are my settings okay?

Toward the end of the log I ran through First, Second and Third getting up to almost 6700 rpm.

Thanks,

ORFC is not coming in early. If you look at log. PW goes to zero more than 2 seconds after TPS goes to zero. That is where ORFC is coming into play.

You are going lean sooner because VE at low row is too low. Here is where I'm not certain. Your lowest row is 20kPa. Your trailing throttle is about 13. So it appears that VE is being extrapolated. I had thought that any kPa below 20 (your lowest row) would use the lowest row value. Not so, it appears.

I would say that if you wish to try to control AFR on trailing throttle, before ORFC kicks in, then you need to make your lowest row about 13, and then possibly add to the VE in that area. Certainly dead times and small pulses widths enter in at those PW, and I'm not referring to your settings only, but moreso, actual characteristics. This is a very tough area to tune. I'd say tougher than idle because PW is even lower.

You are getting might close, it would seem.

I've learned that my recirc valve maintenance was not frequent enough, and I was using an improper type of lube on the piston. Kraftwerks provides no instructions for the valve when bundled with the supercharger kit, nor online. I thought I had it covered. The TurboSmart Kompact Plumb Back valve is nearly identical and their website has specific maintenance information. I believe that problem is solved.

Yes. The outcome of changes to the tune now make sense. At least, they make sense to my noobness.

Gents,

Attached is the tune and a log from a 30 minute session on Shenandoah a couple of days ago. Ambient temp was in the mid-80s. MLV says I'm rich in boost in the higher rpms, and I've already made some fuel table adjustments. I'm looking for comments and advice on AE.

Also, despite numerous calibrations, you'll see that TPS shows more than 100% in boost in spots. I don't get that during the calibration. Is there anything I can or should do about it?

Thanks,

Gents,

I'm not feeling the love... again. I could really use some help here.

If you right click the log in Post #28 and go to Max TPSdot, it jumps to about 301 seconds. Although the TPSdot reached 1009.2, the way I read it the max AE was only 111%. The AE curve in my tune only goes to 800 TPSdot, but that number is 42 Percent Added. I'm not getting my noggin around why the AE percentage wasn't more for a TPSdot of over 1000, so I'm not sure what to do about it.

If you scroll to 322 seconds, there's a TPSdot of 39 that results in 116% enrichment. What gives?

Even a short explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

You're thinking too much.

I don't know the answer. I will say that if you have no drivability issues, then I would not worry. I think Curly's right about over-thinking.

If I HAD to give you an answer, it would be that you are expecting more granularity from the log than it can give. Said another way, the events are so quick that what MS actually did is not fully captured in the log data.

If you look at the 301, you will also notice that the enrichment is happening on the graph BEFORE the TPSDot occurs. So I think there may be some timing / smoothing effects going on.

Re: your question in posts #2 and #3. Yeah, those fine points are beyond my unction level to try to understand and decipher. I could tell you what I use, but I could not tell you why or what the differences are. If you cannot find the answer in the documentation, I would suggest a posting on MSExtra.

Let's assume I'm overthinking this. Do the plots at 301 seconds indicate I need more AE at the high end of my AE curve?

Thanks,

I think not. Likely, the AFR spike to 19 is the result of your previous throttle close, not the opening. Look at 305, you have the same thing, only with the throttle open, and the extra fuel at 301, the AFR goes right back to target.

OK. Well I don't use it, so I have no nothing more to offer, except to say that cifering AFR excursions during shifts will drive you nuts.

Throttle is slammed shut, stopping virtually all air in and exhaust out to sensor. What you s there to evaluate.

I would evaluate a stomp from a cruise, rather than during a shift.

Sir, you don't use what?

I've got another 30 minute on track log besides the one I posted. There's got to be a few of those in there somewhere.

Thanks,

I don't use AE. EAE is a more complete solution in my opinion.

Gents,

I did a couple more track days. It was hot. 90+ ambient and basically no clouds. Attached is the latest tune and a log from the track.

This log shows my max MAT was 153.1 and max CLT 224. A log from the previous day had ~155 and ~228, respectively. I still have the a/c installed, TSE radiator with ducting, the single OEM main fan, and she pulls cold air from under the driver's headlight via a modified RB shroud.. Given the rest of my setup, are these normal track numbers?

Thanks,

Hood vents? What's your water mix?

No hood vents.

Distilled water with ~20% Zerex G-05 and half a bottle of Water Wetter.

Negative 31 Cats? WTF did you do?

Hood vents are a must as per the cooling system thread, and you shouldn't be running coolant with water wetter.
The cats? Well I'm more into dogs.

The Water Wetter webpage says it works with glycol. I'm really at <15% G-05 since the gallon I bought is already 50/50. I wanted just enough coolant to smell a leak.

Are the numbers I posted normal?

CLI Initial Values Table Conventional Wisdom
 

Gents,

Been getting the cold shoulder for a number of days now. Maybe someone would be willing to chime in, in the spirit of brotherhood and world peace and such...

I've been looking at several different tunes and noticed that although ALL the CLI Initial Values Tables of the different tunes had numbers that increased as rpms increased, some had values that increased as the temp increased, and some had values that were highest when the temps were lowest in the table--the values decreased as temp increased.

It seems like it should be one way or the other, that the theory isn't changed by individual car setups. But, I've been wrong about stuff before.

Someone should easily be able to put this to bed.

Thanks,

In my experience the values should be increased as iat rises.
The most important range is 800-1000 rpms. There the "catching" happens before stalling. You'll want higher numbers after 1200 so the fall is gradual and not sudden.

FWIW, my operating theory was that the initial values should be the highest where the RPMs are below the target idle RPM and as the IATs are further away from (what I consider to be) a "stable" temp. Then the values should trend towards the idle valve closed duty cycle. My concept being that, when the IATs are cold, I want the idle to start a bit high and then settle down towards the valve closed setting. Likewise, if the RPMs are low, coming into the idle state, I want the CL initial value to start high and come down to the CL valve setting.

These are my settings, and my CL Idle Valve Closed value is 23.1% and my idle target RPM is 1000;
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...61d07c515d.png

Let me see if I understand.

Your normal idle is at 110 degrees, 1000 rpm with idle valve at 23.1%?

Thanks,

You're almost right. The settings from the table outside of the range specified stay constant. So...if the IAT goes above 110 degrees, then the values set in the top row remain constant, no matter what the temp rises to. Likewise, if the RPMs start above 1800 then the settings in the left-most column remain constant.

The table that I have provides settings for a range of RPMs and IATs that caused the most problems for me, where I live. For that, it means that temps below 110 degrees and RPMs between 500 and 1800 are the most significant and where I need to pay attention to the initial values.

YMMV

This is very interesting. I did what I thought to be the standard procedure. On a cold day early in the Spring I let the car warm up then did the idle valve test. I filled in the numbers on the 55 degree line and put those same numbers in other temp lines as well. Then, a couple of months ago on a very warm day, I did the test and filled in the 90 degree line. Then I interpolated the table. My table reflects needing more valve for higher temps. There are other tunes out there with similar tables, but some are essentially opposite. You've taken a different approach.

What frequency do you have the valve set at?

How do you know this?


Thanks much,

Needing more valve as iat rises is exactly what I mentioned earlier. It's interesting if and how is it possible that valves in different engines behave differently.

I took a different approach and ended up with different results...cold day in winter, took a datalog from a cold start with the initial values at a "plus delta" from the "closed" value and drove into work. Using that log, I would adjust the initial values up or down for different RPMs based on what the closed loop idle RPM error was (+ if the error was -, - if the error was +). Rinse and repeat for increasing morning temps until I ended up with the table I have.

My valve frequency is 440Hz

Read somewhere on msextra that the MS doesn't extrapolate beyond the limits of the tables. So, whatever the last values are, are "sticky".

Yeah, this is indeed interesting. Which means that we can't take each other's settings as-is.

I don't know if the difference is NA vs NB, or 1.6 vs 1.8 - might be worth some comparisons...

here are my settings. Based on where valve settles at the MAT temps. Some are extrapolated because I have never really seen them, but this gives my typical shape. Others, like 1500 RPM and 75Deg will never occur, because my RPM CLT curve is such that I would never have a call for 1500 RPM if the outside time were as high as 75. So those are just meaningless numbers. 1999 with stock idle valve and throttle body, and typically used frequency.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5423ba0b45.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a44574a2a4.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...63ee7385cc.jpg

That is not a choice for my MSPNP Pro-equipped '99. The base map came set at 306Hz and I left it that way.

I'm at church, so I cannot look at my tune. I had mistakenly thought the frequency was on the settings screen I posted above.

My memory says that the commonly used value is 512Hz. I strongly suggest you change it to that. Why spend a bunch of time trying to get things to work properly when a fundamental parameter is incorrect? However, I will verify that value when I get home.

The number is 511.

You might recall when I switched from the MSLabs MS3 Basic to the MSPNP Pro, I had a lot of issues stemming from trying to put the old tune in the new box. The folks at DIY strongly suggested starting fresh and leaving defaults alone. That's one I left alone. If I mess with it based on what I learn from exchanges on this topic, I will use 511Hz.

Thanks,

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...ehavior-91200/

See post #3.

Sir,

Post #3 of that thread does not support your argument.

Humbly,

OK. Try #5 by the most respected Reverant.

Guess I have trouble reading numbers.

Hahahahahhahahaha, I appear to have trouble reading....