possible to have two EBC maps and switch between them? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 09-08-2007, 10:47 PM   #1
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Default possible to have two EBC maps and switch between them?

I'm wondering if the MS's EBC control will allow you to have two boost settings (say, 8 psi for normal driving, then flip a switch for 15 psi) like some other aftermarket EBCs will.

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Old 09-08-2007, 10:52 PM   #2
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sure just have a toggle to turn the EBC on/off problem solved as far as i know there is only 1 map at a time for ebc. just run a 20 psi map and be done with it.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:58 PM   #3
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no, I don't think it's possible to toggle between 2 different boost control maps, however it is possible to have a toggle switch between 2 different msq's entirely--which would meet your goals. you could also store different msq's on a palm. haven't tried it myself, but looks like it should work.

another option, as magna suggests, is to simply put the toggle between the ms and boost solenoid, which would interrupt the ebc circuit allowing you to switch between wastegate and ebc levels.

after saying all of that, there's really no point. you're going to turn it to 'high boost' and never turn power down after that.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:11 PM   #4
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If you end up being in a situation where you NEED to just run WG pressures, just move a couple vac lines around to bypass the solenoid.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:19 PM   #5
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its a function of closed loop boost control. when JP1 sees a voltage change with a toggle switch.

kpa targets map 1 and kpa targets map 2.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:24 PM   #6
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The answer is yes for closed loop target tables, and no for the duty cycle (open loop) table. You'd need to mod the unit for switchable tables as per the MS1 Extra manual. Then tune in closed loop as well as the duty cycle open loop table. Then you can dial in the second table for higher/lower boost.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:28 PM   #7
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hmm interesting--and makes sense.
however, I don't think the closed loop control is polished enough. ask it to give boost outside the duty cycle table and it oscillates then gives up.
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:48 PM   #8
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Sounds complicated. Maybe I'll just run the 'high boost'
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:37 AM   #9
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The closed loop EBC code is definitely experimental (as the closed loop idle code is considered to be too, though it works fairly well once dialed in). I personally run open loop EBC and it does the trick just fine for me, and thats what I recommend for others as well. If you'd like a low boost and high boost map you can save them off as two different .msq files and load them up as needed. It's not a switch on the dash but it's close enough for many people.
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:16 AM   #10
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well the closed loop boost does seem to work too, as long as your duty cycles are in line. I decided to use it for it's safety features: boost cut w/ knock and boost cut w/ high IAT. And perhaps it also will keep boost steady despite seasonal changes. Not using throttle based boost--figure it defeats the point of having a high power, light weight car.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:48 AM   #11
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As my courtship of MS draws nearer, I too see myself needing two boost settings. I like the idea of wastegate only, or EBC active via a simple switch on the dash spliced into the signal line. I assume that the soleniod is kept closed by it's signal voltage from MS, so when there is no signal present, there is essentially no restriction in the boost line.

This might be a top-ten supidest question finalist... but here:
If my map is set for 12psi, what will running less boost do the tune... will it run rich and still pull all the timing it normally would with 12psi. Do the MAPsensor/WBO2 feeds allow MS to compensate for the lower boost on the fly?
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:33 PM   #12
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with the MS or any system (even band-aids) less boost behaves just like your car does now when it's not at full boost yet. you already drive at less boost, just for very short, transitional periods of time.

of course with the MS your whole map will be better dialed in so you may get some improvement at any given point on the map that wasn't otherwise well-tuned prior to running MS.
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Old 09-09-2007, 01:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
As my courtship of MS draws nearer, I too see myself needing two boost settings. I like the idea of wastegate only, or EBC active via a simple switch on the dash spliced into the signal line. I assume that the soleniod is kept closed by it's signal voltage from MS, so when there is no signal present, there is essentially no restriction in the boost line.
You're dead on here-- you'll be wiring up a 12v source for the EBC valve anyways, you can make that run through an activation switch on your dash and with it turned off you'll run wastegate pressure, with our without a MBC in the loop if you wish. Then flip the switch on and you get EBC valve control of the wastegate. The MS will be 'trying' to control the valve all along, but you'll basically have an override switch on your dash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
This might be a top-ten supidest question finalist... but here:
If my map is set for 12psi, what will running less boost do the tune... will it run rich and still pull all the timing it normally would with 12psi. Do the MAPsensor/WBO2 feeds allow MS to compensate for the lower boost on the fly?
Running less boost doesn't change the tune, but you do want to tune for both levels of boost...

Let's say you go for the above scenario, and wastegate control puts you at a steady 8psi, while EBC control puts you at a steady 14psi. Both at WOT.

You'll flip the switch off (8psi wastegate pressure) and tune it in to perfection. Then flip the switch on (14psi EBC) and tune it in to perfection. These are two different areas of the map, they won't effect each other, they need to be tuned separately. Once tuned, the map doesn't care how much boost you're running, it will 'be right' regardless on which way the switch is flipped.

Last edited by FoundSoul; 09-09-2007 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:55 PM   #14
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The switch seems to be the way to go then, Sam - glad I'm not the only one who's been thinking about this.

Scenarios like rainy days and loaning out the Miata are the ones that come to mind where I'd want to switch back to WG pressure.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:28 PM   #15
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Wonder if I should wire this up with a switch or just make it a bullet connector connection instead. I'm removing my switchbox, which allowed me to just flick a switch when i wanted to flash MS so I didn't cook the coils. Now that i'm removing the box I'm thinking I want a switch going to the coils still just to cut the circuit so I can flash without worries.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:39 PM   #16
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Sam, your WG controlled MAP (as in mani pressure) will be lower than your EBC controlled MAP, so you'll be in completely different load zones. Not a problem.

Of course, I don't see you guys actually using a dual boost function. I thought I would, but certainly don't. You won't like your car at WG pressure after driving it at 12-15 psi, trust me on this one.

Corky says dual boost switches are neat for laying rubber though. With ebc off, spin the motor to to high boost threshold rpm, then flip the switch. It should somethin fierce. Never tried it myself.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:27 PM   #17
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On a dry day, *I* wouldn't be the one running WG pressure. Say I wanted to throw someone the keys to make a beer run? Maybe I don't want them having 15 psi at their disposal, you know?

Very interesting idea Corky has, I wonder if that'd work?
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:43 PM   #18
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That is why i don't throw someone my keys if they don't know wtf they are doing my babby gets beat on by me or approved personel only.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoundSoul View Post
Running less boost doesn't change the tune, but you do want to tune for both levels of boost...

You'll flip the switch off (8psi wastegate pressure) and tune it in to perfection. Then flip the switch on (14psi EBC) and tune it in to perfection. These are two different areas of the map, they won't effect each other, they need to be tuned separately. Once tuned, the map doesn't care how much boost you're running, it will 'be right' regardless on which way the switch is flipped.
That is the piece of info I was lacking... general lack of knowledge overall on laptop tuning programs. I guess most guys just tune for the max boost they're running? It would take a lot of time to tune for each PSI and then maybe extrapolate the in-between points depending on the resolution of the MAP.

I've got an unused 3-position toggle switch on my dash now that's not doing anything... how would I be able to get 3-different boost levels out of it. I'd want OFF=wastegate. Pos#1=10psi. Pos#2=14psi. Would some type of resistor in the line be the ticket?

FoundSoul, how would I run an MBC/EBC simultaneously? Does the MBC come first or second? What's the advantage to this and how does it work? My current eBay voodoo MBC is freakin' awesome.

Everybody else, thanks, a few more pieces of the puzzle just got filled in!
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:53 PM   #20
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Sam, both ideas are entirely possible, but both are also (imo) unnecessarily and overly complicated. For instance, you wouldn't want the run the ebc solenoid through the mbc, so you'd want to have seperate discrete signal paths. which would mean adding a second solenoid to act as an a/b switch, and some more rubber hose. i think that you would just be setting yourself up for down road complications with these extra points of potential failure.

depending on what kind of 3-way switch you have, it would be entirely possible to employ 3 boost settings... again, this would add only mild extra complication, probably wouldn't need anything more than the switch and a spdt relay.
switch position 1: interrupts signal between MS and EBC solenoid
switch position 2: connects MS to EBC solenoid
switch position 3: connects MS to EBC solenoid & supplies 12V to JP1
however, like I mentioned a few posts ago, I don't think the closed loop boost control is polished enough to make you happy. i predict that using boost map 2 will cause boost oscillations and be a bit unpredictable.

as much as you like your MBC, you'll like EBC more. EBC does everything better. it's just harder to get set up initially.
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