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Old 11-13-2015, 11:52 PM   #41
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So is the way with everything. The 3d printer world was/is pissed about it all the time. They'll fork stuff that went closed and have custom boards made, then the Chinese will steal the open source boards and everyone is all pissed again. A common component seems to be one individual or small group largely profiting off group effort, they leave a massive margin for the Chinese to take a shot at.

The forums are then flooded by people asking the same stupid question time and time again, the Chinese used cheap components and one outright incorrect one. It always causes the same problem, is easy and cheap to fix, but it's huuuge evidence of what's going on. They get pissed, they don't release schematics for the next revision, and the cycle goes again.

It's too bad car tuner guys aren't also generally programming and electronic engineers. We'd see some wicked cool, customization ECU's for fractions of the prices. All megasquirts are so laughably limited and overpriced, comparatively.

I might be buying a ms3 soon, could you reassemble MS3 after it's nude photoshoot?
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Old 11-14-2015, 12:26 AM   #42
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I might be buying a ms3 soon, could you reassemble MS3 after it's nude photoshoot?
Probably not.

I could have if I still worked at Harris, but I no longer have access to the tools needed to assemble large, fine-pitch surface mount ICs. Taking them off is easy. Taking them off without destroying them and then putting them back on is not.
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Old 11-14-2015, 12:31 AM   #43
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I guess I could cut a stencil and cook the components back on myself, if I had a layout of the board.

I'd fry it though, I always fry one or ten before I get my oven right.
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Old 11-14-2015, 01:21 PM   #44
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No surprise, I'm just still annoyed by the decision.
Don't be. There's no actual, justified use of published schematics for the MS3 daughterboard. Hell, I have the schematics and they have been of very LITTLE use - and I have about 8 different MS3 variants right now.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:11 PM   #45
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I've seen the schematics (over the shoulder of someone who had them). I also have a bad MS3 that COULD be repaired.

Or COULD be de-repaired.

Highest bidder? Parts to fix it are available on digikey. Boot Loader is not.
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Old 11-15-2015, 05:39 AM   #46
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99.5% of the time, when the board is damaged, the damage is on the processor, which you can't fix yourself, even if you had the schematics.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:04 AM   #47
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Why, is there something special about it?

S12XE MCUs|16-Bit Microcontroller|Freescale

Is that not it? Looks like they'll give me a new one free.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:20 AM   #48
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best-selling ECU in the whole world.

Holy ****, is this true? In what sense?

Dann
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Old 11-15-2015, 01:53 PM   #49
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Holy ****, is this true? In what sense?

Dann
Best-selling aftermarket ECU I can easily believe.

Best-selling ECU in general is probably the one that comes in every Corolla Toyota makes.

--Ian
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Old 11-15-2015, 02:12 PM   #50
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Holy ****, is this true? In what sense?
In the sense of total number of units sold.

Aftermarket, of course, as codrus notes. When a person buys a Corolla, they aren't specifically buying the ECU, they're buying a car.

That would be like saying that Lego is the #1 tire manufacturer in the world. It's technically true (Lego sells 381 million tires per year) but the tires which come with a Lego set are kind of incidental to the Lego set as a whole. Most people don't make the conscious decision to buy a Lego set on the basis of the little rubber tires that come with it. We generally skim over that, and acknowledge Bridgestone as the #1 manufacturer of tires in the world (190 million / year.)
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Old 11-15-2015, 02:56 PM   #51
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Props for fun discussion.
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Old 11-15-2015, 03:29 PM   #52
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Why, is there something special about it?

S12XE MCUs|16-Bit Microcontroller|Freescale
The "special" thing in the secret-sauce bootloader which comes on the CPU when you buy it from B&G. And, frankly, this makes the whole "people are going to pirate the MS3" discussion kind of pointless, as the magic is in the firmware, not the board.



But, on topic- Reverant's comment inasmuch as "the CPU board is not generally repairable," while true, misses the point entirely. For the average* user, the value of the schematics is not that they allow you to repair the CPU board, but they they enable you to design & modify supporting circuits which surround the CPU board. Without the schematics, you're left guessing as to how pins on the DIP-40 and header connections interface with the CPU itself.


* = average person capable of reading, understanding, and designing electrical circuits.
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:39 AM   #53
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Huh, that would make sense. So to steal MS3, you'd need to reverse engineer the board, then somehow offload the bootloader much like cracking an android phone or similar.

I'm finding new cool **** from searching though, I guess there are open source ECU projects that run on similar cpus and even use tunerstudio as an interface...
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:13 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by deezums View Post
Huh, that would make sense. So to steal MS3, you'd need to reverse engineer the board, then somehow offload the bootloader much like cracking an android phone or similar.

I'm finding new cool **** from searching though, I guess there are open source ECU projects that run on similar cpus and even use tunerstudio as an interface...
Rusefi is a big one. There is talk about it on this forum somewhere. I'm using their vr board.

It's somewhat of a grey area. The source code isn't open source in the usual meaning of the term. Normal open source is for everyone to view and learn from. The ms3 source code on the other hand is specifically only for people who own B&G hardware. Read the thread linked earlier in this thread. Russian on msextra is "accused" of using the code for his own (rusefi) project because he doesn't own the hardware.

Tuner studio supports quite a few ems'.

I wish they would use a normally accepted open source license, and let people do what they want, as long as their new code is open source too.

Cracking an android phone is slightly different, with an android phone you are looking for ways to execute unauthorized code, and circumnavigate the security. To get this bootloader you would have to somehow copy the memory and then unencrypted it.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:37 AM   #55
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Rusefi seems to run on a processor more of this century, so if it is using MS3 firmware I imagine it's only appears that way because it's trying to get the same end functionality from the same inputs.

Patents on rectangles with rounded corners and all, how many other ways are there to do a ECU based on lookup tables?

I have jack **** for programming experience, but I know you can't load 8 bit mega reprap firmware on new 32bit uno boards. That's got to be a pretty close comparison.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:41 AM   #56
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He's not using the firmware. But at one point he asked about the source code and they said do you own the hardware?
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:25 AM   #57
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Don't be. There's no actual, justified use of published schematics for the MS3 daughterboard. Hell, I have the schematics and they have been of very LITTLE use - and I have about 8 different MS3 variants right now.
I agree. There's nothing to gain with them...

just treat the daughterboard as the CPU itself, and move on with life.

If you really want to benefit the community, design a PCB for it that makes sense (like your MS1) -- since we only assemble about 1/6th of the v3.0 board.

The only point of the v3.0 board anymore is the 5vreg, a few sensor inputs (ait, clt, o2, tps, crank) and the fuel pump.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:39 AM   #58
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just treat the daughterboard as the CPU itself, and move on with life.
I'd love to.

When I designed and built the Hellasquirt board* years ago, I had a copy of the Motorola technical manual for the 68HC908 on my desk, so that I could see exactly how all of the various IO pins worked. Yes, I could have backwards-engineered this info from looking at the 3.0 PCA schematic, but there are so many badly-designed circuits on there that I wanted to be sure I had the best data available right from the source.

The fact that there are active and passive components on the MS3 CPU (other than the CPU itself) means you can't make blind assumptions about how the pins on the actual processor itself are connected to the DIP40 and header connectors.


* = Yes, I realize that this makes me one of the counterfitters that B&G are so concerned about. I built this board for recreational purposes, only made one of them, and removed it from the car before I sold it. I still have it in a box somewhere.
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:20 AM   #59
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Just as Joe stated all these many years ago, I also don't have a problem with the license being attached to the MS3 daughterboard.
Currently I am running an MS3X on my '99 turbo and love the performance and the software. I would like to upgrade my '03 na to an MS3 as well. But I just plain hate the old 3.0 motherboard. And going to the "pro" at $1,200 plus tax and shipping is simply not an option.
All I really need is the MS3 for $220 and the MS3X for $105.
I would design my own main board. Having that made would probably cost around $100 or so at Oshpark (for 3 boards at 5"x6"). Add components and connectors for $50 or so, stuff it in the stock housing and I have the perfect or near perfect solution for around $500.

But, if I understand it properly, the licensing doesn't allow me to do this. Would they ever catch me doing it? Probably not. I do however like to play by the rules (I make an exception for speed limits here). And the labor of love that is the design of a custom PCB would only make sense if I could share it with my Miata buddies. And this is where it all falls down. Because as soon as I started sharing it, I would get caught.

I would even be willing to pay a licensing fee, if it's not too outrageous.

Sorry for the vent.

ST
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:37 AM   #60
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what's the stock housing? a MS1/2 case?
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