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Old 12-14-2010, 12:15 AM   #1
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Default Starting to adjust EAE and decel settings please comment

My tune felt good, and then I enabled the AEA. It immediately felt better. The power comes on buttery smooth if that makes sense.

The downside is that I notice a slight hesitation between shifts. I thought it was my shifting, but now I think it is cutting a little fuel as I shift. I am removing a couple tenths from "suck from walls" to see if this is the issue.

I also have not turned on lag compensation or overrun fuel cut. Do my starting point settings look ok? I don't want to go backwards turning these on, so if you have a jumping point, please post. MSextra doc is a little vague about the overun fuel cut.

My TPS accel based enrichment seems to work fine, but I thought I would throw it in the mix for review. Thanks.


Last edited by miatauser884; 12-14-2010 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:25 AM   #2
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I started playing with EAE lately and it's getting better, but still going lean as **** between shifts. I know it's not my overrun settings because A) I have a 1.8 second delay on it and it doesn't take anywhere near that long to shift and B) datalogs don't show my injector PWs totally dropping out.

Notice that the EAE tables only go down to 30 kpa. I know on overrun I will pull 14-15 kpa when in gear, but I'm not exactly sure how low the MAP is going when I clutch in. Needz moar datal0gz. It might be possible that it's below 30 kpa and I might need to add cells below that to the EAE tables. I don't know, but I'm not messing with it for at least the next few days because in this cold weather my car barely even warms up.

There are some threads on msextra that might help. Some people occasionally type "EAE" when they really mean "normal AE" (the old TPSdot/MAPdot type) but you can usually figure out what they mean.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=101&t=28038 (long)
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=101&t=32000
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...p?f=91&t=35230
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:22 AM   #3
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Quote:
I started playing with EAE lately and it's getting better, but still going lean as **** between shifts.
Mine only just started going lean when I turned on the "enhanced acceleration enrichment" I think the "sucked from walls is too aggressive" thtinks there is more fuel available than there really is.

I'm going to mess with this, then turn on lag compensation, and then turn on "over rune fuel cut" This way I should be able to pinpoint my trouble areas, and tune the problem. Thanks for the links. I searched this forum for a while last night, but there isn't one particular section where I found what I needed.
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Old 12-14-2010, 09:25 AM   #4
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You need a good long tuning session on a stretch of open road to tune your EAE, it's nothing we'll be able to look at and say it looks good.

Read the tuning manuals for it: http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-...anual.html#EAE
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:13 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
You need a good long tuning session on a stretch of open road to tune your EAE, it's nothing we'll be able to look at and say it looks good.

Read the tuning manuals for it: http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-...anual.html#EAE
Thanks. I was reading over this section a lot last night. I'm trying to determine the best method for tuning and reading my logs. At the moment I have lag compensation off, and am adjusting the "sucked from walls" I reduced it across the board and it helped. It feels like I need to reduce it a bit more at the 30kpa are and 60 kpa area. When it is dialed in, the shifts are great.

I just don't want to be too aggressive with the EAE if I should be tuning first with the lag compensation. I've been reading that the EAE is more for fine tuning, which leads me to believe I should turn on lag compensation first and adjust for lean tip in with this.

My lean to recover time is very rapid, which based on the msextra doc, suggests that my ATW and SFW are close to an ideal ratio.

The overrun fuel cut has me a little confused as well. It seems like this could start causing problems during shifting. I guess the kpa needs to be set lower than what it reads between shifts, but above the min. kpa it sees at throttle let up. It asks for rpm ranges and I'm not sure what these should be. I want it to be high enough to recover the idle. What rpm do you guys have the fuel come back on? I was going to try to use the defaults 1500 and 1100.

Ideally I would take a day and tune this. Unfortunately this is not a luxury I have at the moment. I'm logging to and from work and making my adjustments in between. Test, bench adjust, test, repeat. It's slow, but is working, and that is why I want as much input as possible, to help speed the process.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:07 PM   #6
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I have fuel cut above 1700 and return below 1600. Delay of 2 seconds.


The problem I was having with the fuel return at 1100 was the delay between when the RPMs hit 1100 and the time it takes for the injector PW to kick back in. It was causing idle droop and I was relaying on a large dashpot value to compensate, but then a hanging idle under normal conditions. I was going over logs and there was a few ms of time that past between when the CL idle was kicking in and there was still no PW. raising the rpm to 1600 solved the issue...fuel kicks in a littler earlier but it allows everything to stabilize as you come to a slow stop. If you have a good tune, there should be little notice of when the fuel even kicks back in if it does when coasting at that low rpm or if you like going uphill in 2nd gear without throttle input.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:27 PM   #7
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Here is a piece of my datalog. The good news is that the AFR on all three shifts follows the same pattern. This means that it is tunable and due to my settings.

What I see:

On throttle lift the AFR remains stable, then richens, AE comes on as throttle is applied, AE cuts off and results in huge lean spike.

Keep in mind that this is during warmup so the AFR is going to be richer than normal.





Keep in mind that shifts with this tune this morning feel pretty good, but I can feel that there is improvement. the datalog seems to suggest this.

How would you combat this datalog? Lag compensation is off, as well as fuel overrun cutoff.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:33 PM   #8
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I see around 16:1 when i stomp on it, for a blink of an eye. I dont feel it at all. Couldn't get much better so that's good enough for me, much better than when I was on ms-I and basic enrichments. Honestly, the on throttle response is much better than both my Altima and Prelude.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:34 PM   #9
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My overrun rpm is set for above 1800. You're not saving a lot of fuel by setting it much lower. Kpa below 20 I believe (don't have it in front of me) because it's lower than what I should see with the clutch in for shifts, but higher than the 14-16 kpa I see during overrun. TPS below 0.8%.

I believe the EAE section of the manual says that lag compensation is specifically for cars running sequential injection, so if you're still running batch I'd leave it off. It just adds to the # of squirts while keeping the total amount of fuel the same, to get a little fuel in quicker for cars that normally inject only once per cycle, so the response is a little quicker during sharp blips. That's the theory anyway. I no haz sequential yet so I haven't messed with it.

Tuning while looking at logs... it's helpful to have your AFR Target plotted on the same graph as your WBO2 AFR, so you can see how they differ when you accelerate or lift. The kpa ranges where they start diverging is where you need to adjust ATW or SFW for accel or lift. That's what I've been doing anyway.

Unfortunately I realized I've been doing this **** with normal AE still enabled, so I will get to redo most/all of it.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:53 PM   #10
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file > save graph as png or jpeg

knock off that blurry and complicated screen capture BS.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
I see around 16:1 when i stomp on it, for a blink of an eye. I dont feel it at all. Couldn't get much better so that's good enough for me, much better than when I was on ms-I and basic enrichments. Honestly, the on throttle response is much better than both my Altima and Prelude.
It sounds like I need to tune for "feel" at first, then see what the log looks like

Quote:
"it's helpful to have your AFR Target plotted on the same graph as your WBO2 AFR, so you can see how they differ when you accelerate or lift"
How do I divide the target AFR by 100 so that it shows up as 14.70 instead of 1470?
Quote:
knock off that blurry and complicated screen capture BS.
yes sir. If I ever figure out how to successfully trim the data, or have a log file that is less than the mas allowable files size, then I will include it.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
How do I divide the target AFR by 100 so that it shows up as 14.70 instead of 1470?
Make a custom field in MLV with the formula "[AFR Target 1]/100"
Remove the quotes but keep the brackets.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:36 PM   #13
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you also want to makesure they scale the same, min max at 0-20
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
yes sir. If I ever figure out how to successfully trim the data, or have a log file that is less than the mas allowable files size, then I will include it.
i dont think you understood my suggestion... there's a direct way to save an image file of the current graph you're viewing within MLV. it results in this:



...

Incidentally, the "16:1 AFR Spike" is not supposed to be there. I'd look at whatever setting is responsible for low RPM + high MAP + high TPSdot fuel adding.

I'd check first the TPS Based AE and put some significant values (50%?) for TPSdot values that equate to "stomping the pedal".
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
i dont think you understood my suggestion... there's a direct way to save an image file of the current graph you're viewing within MLV. it results in this:



...

Incidentally, the "16:1 AFR Spike" is not supposed to be there. I'd look at whatever setting is responsible for low RPM + high MAP + high TPSdot fuel adding.

I'd check first the TPS Based AE and put some significant values (50%?) for TPSdot values that equate to "stomping the pedal".
I see the print feature now in MLV.

I really don't understand what you are saying about the 50% TPSdot values. My TPS AE tableis at the top of the page. I will readily admit that I do not understand how this works, or how to adjust it. I am currently reading the MSextra manual, bur the reference tables seem to be to megatune, and I have never used it.

I have no clue as to what to adjust on the TPS based AE since there is no correlation to kpa or TP on the graph.

Edit: The best I could come up with would be to increase PW adder values by about 11% since this is the % difference between 14.3 and 16 afr
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:21 PM   #16
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Actually, lag compensation is meant for those *not* running seq, but is not necessary with later firmware revs b/c you can use a little bit of normal AE in the quick-blip situations to compensate for the lag that lag compensation was originally written to compensate for.

The trick to getting EAE working right everywhere is to make sure your VE table covers the areas you don't normally drive very long (all the way down to just above cranking RPM, and all the way into overrun). This is because EAE's purpose is to make sure the amount of fuel specified by the VE table is actually getting into the cylinder during transients. If the VE table is wrong or doesn't go into the operational range you're having an issue with, you won't be able to tune the bad behavior out no matter how much you mess with the EAE settings. The base problem in those cases is the VE table not the EAE settings.

Ken
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by muythaibxr View Post
Actually, lag compensation is meant for those *not* running seq, but is not necessary with later firmware revs b/c you can use a little bit of normal AE in the quick-blip situations to compensate for the lag that lag compensation was originally written to compensate for.

The trick to getting EAE working right everywhere is to make sure your VE table covers the areas you don't normally drive very long (all the way down to just above cranking RPM, and all the way into overrun). This is because EAE's purpose is to make sure the amount of fuel specified by the VE table is actually getting into the cylinder during transients. If the VE table is wrong or doesn't go into the operational range you're having an issue with, you won't be able to tune the bad behavior out no matter how much you mess with the EAE settings. The base problem in those cases is the VE table not the EAE settings.

Ken
How do you go about testing and adjusting the TPS base AE. I've read the msextra blurb on it, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Should I keep the current shape of the curve and just increase each point if I need to richen the mixture and decrease to lean it out? OR do you need to increase/decrease only one or two points on the curve?
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muythaibxr View Post
Actually, lag compensation is meant for those *not* running seq...
Hmm, I guess I equated sequential injection with 1 squirt per cycle to a "small number of injections," which is the wording in the EAE manual. So those of us running batch/2 squirts per cycle have a small number of injections but those running sequential/1 per cycle do not. This is not confusing me at all. But if it's not necessary, great, one less thing to mess with.

Sounds like I need to add a 14 kpa row to my VE table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
I really don't understand what you are saying about the 50% TPSdot values. My TPS AE tableis at the top of the page. I will readily admit that I do not understand how this works, or how to adjust it.
You calibrated your TPS when you installed MS so it knows where 0% and 100% throttle positions are. TPSdot or "rate (%/s)" is how fast you mash the gas pedal. If you depress it half way and it takes you 1 second to do that, that's 50%/s. If it was 1000% that would be you starting at 0% throttle then mashing it to the floor in 1/10th of a second. It will add whatever amount of PW in milliseconds is specified in the table depending on how hard you press the gas, it will add that PW for the "Accel time" specified (0.2 sec in your pic) and taper the increase away over 0.1 sec after that. If you do not move the throttle faster than 80%/sec it will not enrich. To tune it, if you stomp the gas and it goes too rich, decrease the PW adder for the high %/s cells. You just observe how rich/lean it gets when you press the throttle at different rates, and adjust the PW adder up or down as necessary. You can datalog it if you want but it's easy enough to dial in just by watching what happens on the WBO2 gauge.

When I attempt adjusting EAE again I will put the TPSdot threshold high enough so that normal AE is never triggered. Then once I have EAE pretty good I will add back just a small amount of normal AE to take care of the quick stabs.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:43 PM   #19
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Got it, thanks. I think I am trying to tune out some things with EAE that can be handled with AE
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:18 PM   #20
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Ok, so after a lot of reading in the provided links.

EAE is for mainting afr on throttle lift, and AE is for eliminating the rich or lean spike when the throttle is applied? Yes?

I'm not sure when to start adjusting adhere to walls. I guess when the values for suck from walls get too low or high.

Anyone find a ratio/relationship between the two that seems to be standard despite the setup?

This would make it easier to adjust both curves.

I'm done for the night. I'll see what my bench tuning produces tomorrow.
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