Still tuning Idle on my MSM, need some guidance, perhaps in person
04-28-2018, 09:11 PM
#21
Cpt. Slow
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For the record, the tune you posted above is NOT what I sent you.
I've revised it some more. Please, don't let a week pass, don't change anything you don't tell us about, don't try closed loop yet. Just load the tune, tell us what works and what doesn't, and attach another log.
Loading the my tune, making changes, then taking a log does NOT help your situation. /yelling
I've attached the tune you just posted, after quickly looking at your log and making some quick changes. Again, let us know asap how it runs.
I've revised it some more. Please, don't let a week pass, don't change anything you don't tell us about, don't try closed loop yet. Just load the tune, tell us what works and what doesn't, and attach another log.
Loading the my tune, making changes, then taking a log does NOT help your situation. /yelling
I've attached the tune you just posted, after quickly looking at your log and making some quick changes. Again, let us know asap how it runs.
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04-28-2018, 09:14 PM
#22
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Will do, I appreciate the yelling! Have to cram some pizza down and I’ll go back out to the car and get a log. As for what’s relevant and useable for you, what would you like from a log focused on idle tuning?
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04-28-2018, 09:34 PM
#23
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Got it loaded and made a short log Idle is a bit high, load changes like ac on or headlights on make less of a dramatic change and result in less oscillation. Car idles richer in both circumstances Idle catches nicely when I free rev the engine a bit as well
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04-28-2018, 11:39 PM
#24
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Ok now we're getting somewhere.
Remember you need to tune your warm (not hot, not cold) running with zero secondary conditions first. For instance your warm up enrichments are a percentage of your base fuel table. If you haven't nailed your base fuel table, WUE tuning is useless. Likewise, if you haven't figured out your idle, you shouldn't be messing with revs, AC, electrical loads, etc.
For now:
1. load this new tune
2. get your thermostat open
3. adjust the 160* warm up duty cell until you're idling as close to 950rpm as you can make it
4. adjust the 6 "42.0" cells in the lower left corner of your fuel table until you're idling at 14.7afr.
5. bounce between step 3&4 until both conditions are met. Idle advance should be maintaining a very stable idle at this point.
Take a log and post again.
Remember you need to tune your warm (not hot, not cold) running with zero secondary conditions first. For instance your warm up enrichments are a percentage of your base fuel table. If you haven't nailed your base fuel table, WUE tuning is useless. Likewise, if you haven't figured out your idle, you shouldn't be messing with revs, AC, electrical loads, etc.
For now:
1. load this new tune
2. get your thermostat open
3. adjust the 160* warm up duty cell until you're idling as close to 950rpm as you can make it
4. adjust the 6 "42.0" cells in the lower left corner of your fuel table until you're idling at 14.7afr.
5. bounce between step 3&4 until both conditions are met. Idle advance should be maintaining a very stable idle at this point.
Take a log and post again.
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04-29-2018, 01:02 PM
#25
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thanks for the update! Got things loaded and adjusted a bit today. I did have to step a couple cells outside of the bottom left 6 to keep the transitions (cooling fan on) a bit more stable afr wise. The car starts on the first attempt without dying, though the rpm does drop and take a little bit to come up to target. It doesn't stall if I free rev the car either, idle catches a bit above target and falls to target easily when I do that. first log is the first startup after I loaded the map, second log is after my changes to the ve table and warmup duty as described, and I posted the edited MSQ as well.
thanks again for your help and time!
thanks again for your help and time!
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04-29-2018, 01:55 PM
#26
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Ok, looks better. I changed the fuel table in the cells it was running lean in after it started. If that doesn't fix it, you'll have to make changes to after start enrichments.
Sadly I also noticed you were running a few percentage points of WUE during normal operating temperatures (180-205), so you may have to go back and tweak your fuel table before doing any of the suggestions below. I also set it to go 5% richer by 230*, and pull up to 5* timing by 230, these settings just help keep the engine safe if it starts to over heat.
One thing you can do is switch to closed loop on a cold engine, just get it to idle(it won't start/run well), and let it idle with no throttle input until it warms up, all while logging. This will log the idle DC required to maintain your target idle RPM curve, and you can use this in your initial duty table for later closed loop use, and your warmup duty cycle while you're still using open loop.
Remember you want to use WUE to maintain ~12.5afr tapering to 14.7 when warm. If you're happy with the afr you're running at when warm, you can now start to change warmup enrichments to achieve this.
You can also switch to idle valve test mode, and bring the rpms up to your RPM column numbers, going as high as your idle valve will allow, and you can manually tune these very low load cells in the fuel table to help the afrs stay happy when you lift off throttle to return to idle.
Also once you're happy with the idle afr, you can turn on EGO, and give the idle cells ~5% authority, turning all other cells to 0% while you autotune. This plus the idle advance settings I've already given you should give you a very solid idle, both in terms of RPM and AFR. Only once you've achieved this stable RPM and AFR should you look into switching to closed loop idle control. Full disclousure: I don't like closed loop idle. Maybe I'm not using the right firmware, maybe I don't drive my car enough to really want it, but I've been extremely happy with open loop idle. If you want to pursue CL, I won't be able to help you very much.
Other people are welcome to join in, this is a very slow way to remote tune, but hopefully it's making your idle more solid before you start driving it around to autotune.
Sadly I also noticed you were running a few percentage points of WUE during normal operating temperatures (180-205), so you may have to go back and tweak your fuel table before doing any of the suggestions below. I also set it to go 5% richer by 230*, and pull up to 5* timing by 230, these settings just help keep the engine safe if it starts to over heat.
One thing you can do is switch to closed loop on a cold engine, just get it to idle(it won't start/run well), and let it idle with no throttle input until it warms up, all while logging. This will log the idle DC required to maintain your target idle RPM curve, and you can use this in your initial duty table for later closed loop use, and your warmup duty cycle while you're still using open loop.
Remember you want to use WUE to maintain ~12.5afr tapering to 14.7 when warm. If you're happy with the afr you're running at when warm, you can now start to change warmup enrichments to achieve this.
You can also switch to idle valve test mode, and bring the rpms up to your RPM column numbers, going as high as your idle valve will allow, and you can manually tune these very low load cells in the fuel table to help the afrs stay happy when you lift off throttle to return to idle.
Also once you're happy with the idle afr, you can turn on EGO, and give the idle cells ~5% authority, turning all other cells to 0% while you autotune. This plus the idle advance settings I've already given you should give you a very solid idle, both in terms of RPM and AFR. Only once you've achieved this stable RPM and AFR should you look into switching to closed loop idle control. Full disclousure: I don't like closed loop idle. Maybe I'm not using the right firmware, maybe I don't drive my car enough to really want it, but I've been extremely happy with open loop idle. If you want to pursue CL, I won't be able to help you very much.
Other people are welcome to join in, this is a very slow way to remote tune, but hopefully it's making your idle more solid before you start driving it around to autotune.
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04-29-2018, 08:35 PM
#27
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The car hates the current changes for some reason, so for now I’ve swapped back to the tune I last posted for you. I’ll post a cold start log up to operating temp in a bit when I’m back at my computer, idle never dropped to anywhere near target. I suspect it has to do with the WUE extending past and into standard operating temps. I was able to drop it down with the idle warm up duty cycle table and playing with the ve table, but the car seemed much happier with the prior revision that terminated WUE after 160* on that prior revision.
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04-29-2018, 10:03 PM
#29
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Interesting, apparently changing the WUE and cold advance table affected the warmup duty table. It changed the top temperature cell to 230, without changing any of the DC numbers. Since you never got close to 230, you were essentially running the 177* cell, which was closer to 33% than 29. Dumb.
Should be fixed now, lemme know how the rest of the changes helped.
BTW, I did change your target table to go from 1500rpm cold to the 950rpm warm target. It was 1100-950.
Should be fixed now, lemme know how the rest of the changes helped.
BTW, I did change your target table to go from 1500rpm cold to the 950rpm warm target. It was 1100-950.
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04-29-2018, 10:07 PM
#31
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Also what are the specs on your coolant system? It seems to sour right past the standard 190* thermostat opening range without dipping and goes right to 200*...
Your fan should be coming on and staying on at 185*. What rad? What coolant mixture? What thermostat? Reroute?
Your fan should be coming on and staying on at 185*. What rad? What coolant mixture? What thermostat? Reroute?
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04-29-2018, 10:08 PM
#32
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Good, hopefully you're not blindly loading these and expecting magic. I'm not a magician, just helping you out. Take a look at what I change and I'm glad it's making sense.
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04-29-2018, 10:15 PM
#33
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I’m not blindly loading (at least not completely lol) I feel like I’m gaining a much better understanding of what’s going on with the car the more we mess with this.
The cooling system is completely stock down to the coolant mixture. I’ve never had occasion or reason to open it up. The fan is definitely coming on (though I’d have to look at the mew and see when it’s commanded on to see the temp) The stock gauge has always risen to the center and stayed put, so the only times I’ve been looking at actual coolant temps have been in tunerstudio.
The cooling system is completely stock down to the coolant mixture. I’ve never had occasion or reason to open it up. The fan is definitely coming on (though I’d have to look at the mew and see when it’s commanded on to see the temp) The stock gauge has always risen to the center and stayed put, so the only times I’ve been looking at actual coolant temps have been in tunerstudio.
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04-30-2018, 09:13 PM
#34
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Apologies for not being able to be at the car today, wife’s grandmother is in hospice and not doing well. It may be a few days before I’m able to get working on things again
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05-05-2018, 10:23 PM
#35
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Spent a bit of time with the car today. Open loop idle seems to be pretty dialed in with the exception of the rare instance where quickly flipping the headlights on drops the idle pretty low for a few seconds. I’ve mostly adjusted this out. The car also seems a bit happier a bit richer than 14.7 at idle (high 13’s low 14’s), and I’m happy with that.
Cold starts and warm starts seem to be working well at the current temps outside here in Maryland
my wife’s grandmother passed today, so it’ll be a little longer before I really have any time to invest in tuning the car.
thanks again for all your help Curly and Brain! I’m sure I’ll have more questions in the near future, but the car is running so much better, I can’t thank you enough
Cold starts and warm starts seem to be working well at the current temps outside here in Maryland
my wife’s grandmother passed today, so it’ll be a little longer before I really have any time to invest in tuning the car.
thanks again for all your help Curly and Brain! I’m sure I’ll have more questions in the near future, but the car is running so much better, I can’t thank you enough
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05-06-2018, 10:34 AM
#36
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Sorry about your wife's grandmother, sounds like she was at least comfortable at the end.
Glad the car is running better. When you get a chance to mess with it, use idle test mode to bring the RPM artificially lower, as low as it'll go, and tune these load/rpm cells. That way when an electrical load does bring the idle down, the poor fuel map won't make it worse.
Glad the car is running better. When you get a chance to mess with it, use idle test mode to bring the RPM artificially lower, as low as it'll go, and tune these load/rpm cells. That way when an electrical load does bring the idle down, the poor fuel map won't make it worse.
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05-06-2018, 10:53 AM
#37
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Good tip! I’ve been guessing at those super low cells by watching the wideband when I do things that drop the idle into them and also the cells that it flares into as the idle corrects itself. I’ll hopefully get a small amount of time with the car today before my wife wakes up (the dogs have had me up since 6 as usual, but I’m assuming she’ll spend quite a bit of the day in bed today)
Grandmom was comfortable, at 97 years old she had only given up her license to drive two years ago, and only had health issues for the last year or so. It’s sad, but she had a great long life and was surrounded by family at the end
Grandmom was comfortable, at 97 years old she had only given up her license to drive two years ago, and only had health issues for the last year or so. It’s sad, but she had a great long life and was surrounded by family at the end
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05-11-2018, 08:28 PM
#39
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Quick question about Over-run fuel cut... I was still having intermittent stalls coming to a stop that weren't always reproduce-able. Doing some reading in the manual and elsewhere, I started looking at these numbers. I have things Idling pretty darn well a this point (was even able to drive comfortably to work without the laptop this morning), even experimenting with closed loop idle settings has worked out well now that with your help my open loop is dialed in very well. Turning OFF Over-run fuel cut seems to completely solve the intermittent stall issue, so I'm looking at my settings (same as in the above posted tunes since I hadn't adjusted it at all) to see if they should be changed, or is it just fine to leave over-run turned off completely (I'm not super concerned with the fuel savings it provides, since I rarely drive the car to begin with)? Obviously if its advantageous to have over-run cut working correctly, I'll use it, as I hate having features worth using that I'm not taking advantage of!
I've attached a log of the stall on my way to petco this evening, since it just so happened to occur
I've attached a log of the stall on my way to petco this evening, since it just so happened to occur
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05-14-2018, 11:05 PM
#40
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Looks like your fuel-cut is disengaging too late.
The configuration looks like you should be dropping out of fuel-cut at 1400RPM but your log shows it dropping out of fuel-cut at 1062 RPM, at this point you are in a full lean condition.
This is way too late to recover, you can't get enough fuel injected in time to stop you from stalling.
Add the following custom field to track "FuelCut On": ([status3] & 1)
Or view the "Engine in overrun" attribute in the lower values pane (this may not fully correlate because this attribute says you are "eligible" for fuel cut, not necessarily that all of fuel cut conditions/timers have been met).
The question is why is fuel cut disengaging so late?
My guess is your engine state settings aren't configured correctly.
I'm running 1.5.1 and my settings are:
Slow acceleration threshold(rpm/sec): 300
Slow deceleration threshold(rpm/sec): -700
[In 1.5.1 the fast acceleration settings have been removed as they turned out to be unneeded - I can't remember how I had these set when the fast settings existed.]
Looking at your log, I never see your "Engine decelerating quickly/slowly" being triggered, without these states triggering, you won't disengage fuel-cut at the specified RPMs (High 3500, Low1400).
In fact, it looks like going into "engine idling" is the only thing pulling you out of fuel cut - this is why fuel stays cut until 1062RPM, at which point you are in free fall with no chance of recovery.
You'll have to work on your engine state settings - or better yet, turn off fuel cut for now.
The configuration looks like you should be dropping out of fuel-cut at 1400RPM but your log shows it dropping out of fuel-cut at 1062 RPM, at this point you are in a full lean condition.
This is way too late to recover, you can't get enough fuel injected in time to stop you from stalling.
Add the following custom field to track "FuelCut On": ([status3] & 1)
Or view the "Engine in overrun" attribute in the lower values pane (this may not fully correlate because this attribute says you are "eligible" for fuel cut, not necessarily that all of fuel cut conditions/timers have been met).
The question is why is fuel cut disengaging so late?
My guess is your engine state settings aren't configured correctly.
I'm running 1.5.1 and my settings are:
Slow acceleration threshold(rpm/sec): 300
Slow deceleration threshold(rpm/sec): -700
[In 1.5.1 the fast acceleration settings have been removed as they turned out to be unneeded - I can't remember how I had these set when the fast settings existed.]
Looking at your log, I never see your "Engine decelerating quickly/slowly" being triggered, without these states triggering, you won't disengage fuel-cut at the specified RPMs (High 3500, Low1400).
In fact, it looks like going into "engine idling" is the only thing pulling you out of fuel cut - this is why fuel stays cut until 1062RPM, at which point you are in free fall with no chance of recovery.
You'll have to work on your engine state settings - or better yet, turn off fuel cut for now.
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