airbrush1

Hey guys, I stepped away from my MS project on my msm for most of the winter, because its just too frustrating to sit out in the cold and try to learn something from scratch. Now that its starting to warm up in Maryland, I'm ready to tackle it again. I started to try and tackle my idle tuning again yesterday since it was a nice day, and it seems as if in open loop I have things working well enough wiith the AC on and all the electrical load I can throw at the car, but without that additional load the car is idling around 730rpm and isn't smooth ( I cant even find and idle target setting ). The car doesn't like to start on the first try (warm OR cold), and it continues to want to stall when coming to a stop if I'm not careful to brake slowly with load on the engine (the idle doesn't want to catch if I let it drop more than a couple thousand rpm with the clutch in ) Closed loop idle control immediately destroys any sense of a stable idle I have, so I have it turned off at the moment. 'Im not far from the basemap that diyautotune supplies with the mspnp for the msm, as all I've done is a bit of around the neighborhood autotune and messing with the idle so far, as well as getting the AEM wideband to sync up with tunerstudio (within about .4afr).

I'm making slow progress through trial and error and LOTS of reading,and I'm not going to give up on that, but I'm getting super frustrated that I just cant get things to "click" in my brain when it comes to this stuff... I need help (I've attatched my current msq if anyone would be kind enough to look over what I have going on), I could easily drop the car off somewhere reputable and just pay them to do the tuning on it, but I wouldn't learn anything, which is sort of the point with this whole project. To reach out, is there anyone in the Maryland or DMV area that would be willing to spend some PAID time with me going over the tuning process in person? I know we have quite a few competent tuners in the general vicinity

For reference, the car is an 04 msm with little enchilada, and no other power mods, stock injectors, stock boost levels for the moment

Skamba

Some quick pointers that might help you:
- Don't forget that you have the idle VE table enabled. I found it easier disabling this to tune the idle.
- Closed loop is still the way to go. I wouldn't spend too much time on open loop.
- In general your closed loop settings are somewhat off what I've seen to be common. Might be smart to take a look at Brains ( https://trubokitty.com/#/tune ) and take those to start out with.
- Make a cheat sheet of what idle valve PWM% corresponds with with RPM (or at least roughly). You can do this with the Output Test Mode - Idle Valve in the CAN-BUS menu. You'll need to have a rough idea of those values to fill in various screens.

airbrush1

thanks! Ill go over all those values from Brain this week. I took a look at what he has going on and my settings seem very different, as do my fuel and ignition tables

Skamba

Good luck! Brains settings should hopefully at least get it working - albeit maybe a bit roughly. From that point on it should be somewhat easier to start tweaking. If you run into issues, could you also include a log of your idle?

curly

iTrader: (25)

I'd argue you should spend more time on open loop, as closed loop adds a lot of other factors.

You need to make sure EGO control, idle VE, and idle advance are all shut off. I usually tune for a ~950rpm idle, as that seems to be smoother than Mazda's 850, but 90% of the time I'm tuning cars with the stiffest rubber mounts, mazda comp, installed. But whatever your target idle, make sure you have a column for it on your fuel and ignition table. Nothing more frustrating that trying to nail target AFRs when it's interpolating between a 700 and 1200rpm column for instance.

Just had a look at your tune, it seemed very rough. Try this, see if it's any better. I simply smoothed the fuel table and changed some other settings. Don't worry about cranking and starting yet, you need to get your warm fuel table close to "finished" first.

Once your coolant temps are 180+, adjust the 160* warmup duty cell until it's idling semi wheel at 950rpm, and select the 6 35.0 cells on the fuel table in the idle range until it's at a steady 14.7.

Are you still on a stock ~190* thermostat? And stock injectors?

airbrush1

airbrush1

did some logging today on the way back from cars and coffee, as well as a limited bit of messing with the idle with limited success. Cold and warm starts still create a situation where the car dies unless i give it some throttle until it stabilizes. The idle doesn't "catch" in starting situations or when coming to a stop, though its a bit better at not dying when I come to a stop. More research! current tune included, uploader tells me my logs are too large to upload for some reason

Skamba

Did you test what idle PWM% corresponds to what idle RPM (see previous post) and then put those into the idle warmup duty screen?

airbrush1

airbrush1

OK, spent some time back out at the car just now. Made some changes to the idle pwm and got my target in the the 950 range. Still some oscillations in closed loop (especially with the ac on, but only 40rpm or so with it off. I was able to get the rpm to hang a bit when free-revving the car as well, which seems to have helped alleviate the stalling after throttle input and letting the revs fall at idle issue, as well as the starup issue. I haven't had a chance to take it around the block to test it while moving yet. I've had to add some fuel in the lower cells to get closer to a target afr down at idle, as well as a bit of timing below the idle cells (though it really seems to me like a LOT of timing down low... not that I'm particularly familiar). The cooling fans and ac compressor still do a number on my oscillations at the moment though.

Skamba

Your timing does seem pretty high. Normally for tuning, I'd just make all the cells up to 1000 rpm at 10 degrees (like so). Might have to adjust your VE again to get to a decent AFR (14.0 or so).

In regards to your idle, you will probably have to tune your PID settings. Currently you are using basic mode, which is P=100, I=100, D=0. To counteract oscillations you can increase the D. If you want, you can start with my settings (link) - although no guarantees that it'll work for you like it does for me. Please note that if you change 'Use Last Value or Table' to 'Table' under 'Closed-Loop Idle Settings', you will also have to fill in the table (a new menu options appears) - as the default settings might be off for your car.

airbrush1

I had been messing with the advanced mode for PID Idle settings, and havent had much luck stabilizing things unfortunately, so I turned it back to basic for the moment. I feel like I need to get back to some basic known to be OK Idle timing and fuel settings before I mess with the idle too much at this point. The basemap from DIY seems to have idle timing in the 25* range out of the box, mine aren't too far from that now

curly

iTrader: (25)

airbrush1

curly

iTrader: (25)

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

no open loop. use what god gave you. the idle settings are just bad.

your msq showed:

youre not using the intial value table, but last known.
youre not using idle rpm timing correction
youre not using the idle ve table
your idle freq is too low for your valve
engine states arent tuned well
you never close the idle value
and you never tuned PID.

airbrush1

I did, all those settings are off, and I've been able to adjust the idle valve duty cycle to get my rpm target at idle to be around 950rpm. I pulled a bunch of timing in the idle cells to get closer to what I've seen on other working timing maps, and I've locked out autotune until after 1500rpm to make sure it stays away from my idle when I use it.

current map attached, as well as a short datalog of my warm idle

airbrush1

Thanks for the feedback! I'm still playing with things quite a bit, and I was under the assumption that I had been screwing things up (seems I was correct)
I'll continue to update things as I try to work all this out.

airbrush1

did some flailing today... totally destroyed my idle and had to go back to the edited map Curly sent me and start over from there. I've attached what I have currently, The car seems to idle pretty well once warm with these settings (obviously I have a long way to go from here) Feel free to look at what I have going on and yell at me (I'm sure I deserve it)

airbrush1

OK, got in touch with a local tuner that was kind enough to do some remote work for me this evening. We only worked on idle for about an hour on and off, and it seems like he made some relevant and helpful changes for me. I've attached the current revision after he worked with me. Pretty sure he's coming out tomorrow to do some more tuning work on the car with me directly ( as long as no one takes a look at what hes done and tells me to run for the hills!

my log files are too large to upload unfortunately