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A summary of the Megasquirt family for newcomers
14 Attachment(s)
This question seems to come up a lot, so I'm creating a sticky that I can point people to in the future. This is current as of Oct 2014, and will (hopefully) be updated as time goes on.
Note that I am focusing only on offerings from DIYAutoTune, which is considered by most to comprise the "mainstream" MS product line. There are also some excellent Miata-specific MS-based ECUs available from MSLabs, however I am not particularly knowledgeable about those. Also, since the question comes up a lot: no aftermarket ECU will return OBD-II codes, and this includes the MS family. Those of you who live in areas where plug-in emissions testing is performed on '96 and newer vehicles will need to deal with that. Many people swap ECUs (and injectors, etc) once ever year or two, a few die-hards come up with custom "parallel" solutions that place the MS beside the stock ECU, letting the former run the engine and the latter talk to the OBD-II test station. This is very hard to do right. Now, the breakdown: Absolute cheapest: MS1, the original: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MegaSquirt I Kits Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com For $219, you get a box of parts that you solder together yourself, and is then useless until you do a bunch of additional custom and poorly-documented modifications and also construct a new wiring harness from scratch. This is how we all used to do it, and none of us do anymore. This unit uses a 30 year old CPU running a software package that leaves much to be desired, on a circuit board that was originally designed to run throttle-body injection with a distributor and uses some really lousy, sub-optimal circuit designs. So don't do it. Just don't. Also ran: MS2, the original: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MegaSquirt II Kits Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com MS2 places a new CPU onto the same crappy old circuit board as MS1. The software sucks somewhat less, but it's otherwise the same old shit where you've gotta do a bunch of custom modifications to the board and live with crappy circuit design. DIYPnP: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 DIYPNP Nippon Denso 76pin Unassembled Kit DIYAutoTune.com Now we're getting somewhere. The same CPU as the MS2, on a new board, with less-bad circuit design. Decent software, and once it's assembled you have a plug-and-play solution with no harness fab needed. A good choice if you're skilled with a soldering iron, a terrible idea if you're not. MSIII: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MegaSquirt III Kits and Assembled ECUs Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com Yet another new CPU tacked onto the same old circuit board from the MS1. This also adds the "X" expansion board, which finally adds native support for multiple ignition coils and injectors, PWM-based idle valves, etc., meaning you no longer have to do a bunch of custom modifications internally. Sadly, it still retains some of the crappy circuit topology from the original 1990s vintage MS1 design and you still have to build your own harness. This is an intermediate step in the right direction; cutting-edge software married to trailing-edge hardware. To be avoided by all but the most hard-core techie types. MSPnP2: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MegaSquirtPNP Plug-and-Play MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems by DIYAutoTune Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com This is essentially a fully pre-built version of the DIYPnP. Based on the MS2 CPU, it's an excellent choice for the '90-'00 Miatas. MS3 Pro: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MS3-Pro Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com Tits. A generic, non plug-n-play ECU based on the MS3 CPU, but with completely new circuit board from the ground up which carries over none of the shitty circuit design from the original MS1. (They even "borrowed" the crank decoder circuit design that we came up with on this forum a couple of years earlier.) This will fit any car, but requires harness-building like the old ones. Expensive and worth every penny, easily the best universal ECU on the market today. I had the privilege of running a beta version of this on my old 1990 car, and loved it. MSPnP Pro: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413658584 MegaSquirtPNP Pro MM0105 for the 01-05 Mazda Miata, manual trans DIYAutoTune.com Tits, in plug-n-play form. Only available (for now) for the '01-'05 cars (a separate version exists for the '04-'05 Mazdaspeed). Based on the MS3 Pro design and software. The best plug-n-play available for the later-model cars. |
For posterity:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1176845)
Well, in this context, the term MS3 can be used to describe a whole family of ECUs which share a common core architecture.
In its most basic form, the MS3 is a certain CPU and a specific set of software that runs on it. There is an ECU which we call the MS3, which is the basic model built around this CPU, and can be used by hardcore tech types as the foundation for building a complete ECU for a custom application. I've put a few of them into race cars. Then there are a number of other ECUs which are based on the MS3 CPU and software, but on a custom circuit board typically designed for a specific application. The MS3Pro and MSPnP Pro are examples of this. DIYAutoTune took the basic MS3 CPU and used it as the core of a very advanced and capable set of ECUs which are proprietary to DIY. (Yes, the fact that there's a company called DIY, which sells products with DIY in their name, makes things confusing when we're literally taking about do-it-yourself ECU builds, as I've built in the past for myself and others.) The MSLabs products are similar in concept to the more advanced models sold by DIY. Reverant, like DIY, designs and builds ECUs which utilize the basic MS2 and MS3 CPUs at their core, but place them on a board which adds a host of advanced features not available on the "basic" design. The only reason I didn't go into any detail about them here is that I simply don't have any hands-on experience with them. |
Anyone want to write a summary of Reverant's and Braineack's stuff?
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1176665)
So don't so it.
Just don't.
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
(Post 1177314)
Anyone want to write a summary of Reverant's and Braineack's stuff?
Scott's stuff is the DIYAutoTune MS3 DIY kit isnt it? He just offers his electrical genius to inept folks like myself. |
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
(Post 1177314)
Anyone want to write a summary of Reverant's and Braineack's stuff?
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correct.
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+1 for someone including Reverants stuff in here.
The noobs...they need to know what he offers |
As I'm a heretic and do not run MS in my car, a question:
Do all versions of MS, from the shitty to the shiny, allow for both fuel and timing control? |
All the ones designed for Miatas do but you can leave off one or the other if you are building your own.
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Great, thank you.
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Originally Posted by matthewdesigns
(Post 1177492)
Do all versions of MS, from the shitty to the shiny, allow for both fuel and timing control?
Likewise, no version of the MS1 is capable of running more than two injector channels (meaning you must run batch-injection), and basic MS2s require custom modification to drive more than two injector channels. All ECUs based on the MS3, as well as the more advanced MS2-based units, come out of the box ready to drive four (or more) injector channels, and two (or more) ignition channels. |
So it is possible to control timing with the low end units if they were built specifically for a Miata? Or did I misunderstand Sixshooter's response as actually being either/or, rather than both are achievable in the same unit?
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Originally Posted by matthewdesigns
(Post 1177508)
So it is possible to control timing with the low end units if they were built specifically for a Miata? Or did I misunderstand Sixshooter's response as actually being either/or, rather than both are achievable in the same unit?
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Originally Posted by matthewdesigns
(Post 1177508)
So it is possible to control timing with the low end units if they were built specifically for a Miata?
I was going to link you to the specific thread in which I described an advanced version of this mod, however I see that ImageFrame has fucked me yet again, and all of my diagrams are gone. I'll see if I can resurrect those sometime next week after I'm back home. That said, don't build an MS1. Seriously, God kills a kitten every time you even think about it. |
No intentions to build one at this point, just asking questions while I have the opportunity. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1177518)
Yes. Having performed suitable internal modifications to bring out two ignition channels, then yes, the MS1 will control both fuel and ignition directly.
I was going to link you to the specific thread in which I described an advanced version of this mod, however I see that ImageFrame has fucked me yet again, and all of my diagrams are gone. I'll see if I can resurrect those sometime next week after I'm back home. That said, don't build an MS1. Seriously, God kills a kitten every time you even think about it. |
I didn't realize that MS3/MS3x was still on the same old crappy board. So if you already have a DIYPNP, there's no reason at all to upgrade to anything but an MS3Pro if you wanted to stay in the Megasquirt family?
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Thanks for putting this together, definitely helpful!
Two noob questions: 1. It appears that the MS3 Pro is only available assembled? 2. It should be possible to build a "PNP" jumper harness for the MS3 Pro using the DIYBOB ND76pin to connect to the factory 1.6 harness? |
Clearly I need to update this thread to include a preface which discusses the CPUs themselves, and talks a bit about the 3.0 / 3.57 mainboards... So little time.
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1177726)
I didn't realize that MS3/MS3x was still on the same old crappy board.
This is one of the biggest reasons why Bruce and Al need to be tortured to death and then have their graves desecrated by the surviving members of GWAR.
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1177726)
So if you already have a DIYPNP, there's no reason at all to upgrade to anything but an MS3Pro if you wanted to stay in the Megasquirt family?
If you have a '90-'00 car with the original engine, then the DIYPnP or MSPnP2 are really all you need. The only reason* I'd upgrade to an MS3Pro for these cars would be if you are running an '01+ engine, so you can control the VVT natively. If you have a whole '01-'05, car, then I'd recommend the MSPnP Pro, which is an MS3Pro in plug-n-play form. * = or if DIY gives it to you basically for nothing, which is how I got mine.
Originally Posted by Roda
(Post 1177770)
Two noob questions:
1. It appears that the MS3 Pro is only available assembled? 2. It should be possible to build a "PNP" jumper harness for the MS3 Pro using the DIYBOB ND76pin to connect to the factory 1.6 harness? 2: That's not a question. But it's extremely easy to adapt the MS3Pro's included generic harness to pretty much any vehicle wiring harness. Here's what mine looked like plugged into the factory harness in my 1990: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...-installed-jpg |
Thanks!
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Great thread, wish this was around a couple years ago for my newb ass to read
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1177778)
I'd say that's a reasonable assertion, though of course the MS3Pro, not being a PnP ECU, targets a somewhat different audience.
If you have a '90-'00 car with the original engine, then the DIYPnP or MSPnP2 are really all you need. The only reason* I'd upgrade to an MS3Pro for these cars would be if you are running an '01+ engine, so you can control the VVT natively. Car in question is a 95 with a 99-00 head, but running with the old CAS and shit, because 95 DIYPNP. I find this annoying, but not sure if it's annoying enough to pony up for an MS3Pro at the moment. Annoying to assembly my own MS3X if it was a step up? Yeah. Maybe. But it's not, so nope. Bummer. |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1177916)
Car in question is a 95 with a 99-00 head, but running with the old CAS and shit, because 95 DIYPNP.
I find this annoying, but not sure if it's annoying enough to pony up for an MS3Pro at the moment. Translation: assuming you already own a DIYPnP, you don't need to use the CAS. Just fix your shit. |
Well yes. :)
The point was getting to build a new harness from scratch and not be limited to the DIYPNP connector at the ECU. The easy button is just changing the what.... 2? 3? wires to run the native 99-00 trigger shiz. But then i still have a PNP running on a 20 year old molested harness. Either way, suppose i should start sourcing parts and go from there. I appreciate the clarification. Props given! |
there's no limitation with the diypnp connector, it's acutally easier to populate/build/change compared to the db37 style.
the only differnce betweena 91-93, 94-95, 96-97, and 99-00 is how you run the jumper wires inside the case to the harness. All are built on the same 76 pin connector. if you want to run a 99-00 head and remove the CAS, the changes would external to the MS, and then just a software parameter change. No internal mods to the MS would have to be made. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1177934)
if you want to run a 99-00 head and remove the CAS, the changes would external to the MS, and then just a software parameter change. No internal mods to the MS would have to be made.
All you need to do is go under the hood and move the wires that presently hit the CAS to go to the crank and cam sensors instead. You'll split the power and ground to both sensors, run the white wire to the crank sensor, and the yellow wire to the cam sensor. Then just fire up TunerStudio and tell the MS that it's now connected to a '99-00 Miata instead of a 4G63 Mitsu. You'll have to recalibrate the timing offset (can't remember what the MS2 calls this parameter) but aside from that no MS changes needed. Now go forth and fix thy shit. :giggle: |
Neato! So basically... it'll take more time to get the crank trigger actually installed than it will to actually do the wiring and changes in settings.
I <3 this bar. |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1177778)
If you have a '90-'00 car with the original engine, then the DIYPnP or MSPnP2 are really all you need. The only reason* I'd upgrade to an MS3Pro for these cars would be if you are running an '01+ engine, so you can control the VVT natively.
If you have a whole '01-'05, car, then I'd recommend the MSPnP Pro, which is an MS3Pro in plug-n-play form. |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1177959)
So basically... it'll take more time to get the crank trigger actually installed than it will to actually do the wiring and changes in settings.
Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix
(Post 1177962)
I thought MS3x could control VVT natively?
In the quote above, I am recommending the MS3Pro or MSPnP Pro (which are also MS3 based) as opposed to the MS2-based DIYPnP or MSPnP2, as those units cannot control VVT. If you wish to do all of your own wiring and harness-building, and aren't offended by having an ECU that consists of a modern CPU module plugged into a badly-designed 15 year old mainboard with yet a third board hanging off the side to control most (but not all) of the I/O, and don't mind dealing with unreliable and hard-to-tune crank/cam trigger circuits, and prefer DB-37 connectors over something robust, and are a cheapskate, then by all means use the MS3X as opposed to the MS3Pro or MSPnP Pro. The MS3X uses the same core CPU and runs the same software as the MS3Pro and MSPnP Pro, it's merely that the physical implementation of the MS3X sucks so badly that you'd think they deliberately designed it to be a piece of shit, as opposed to the truth which is merely that Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo are lazy, apathetic, paranoid assholes who prefer retaining backwards-compatibility with something that sucked when it was new and very few people actually care about anymore, as opposed to breaking free from the shackles of the past and designing a modern ECU properly from the ground up. |
I now feel inadequate with MS3x, yet it's still far above me that I think in my case, the end user is more outdated and shitty than the unit itself. I guess I'll carry on. :rofl:
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An alternative for the NA and the NB1 would be the WestfieldMX5 board for the MS3PRO Module
MS3-Pro Module - An EMS on a circuit board, for building your own systems MS3 Pro pcb | Frank's Westfield MX5 MS3 Pro pcb | Some DIY required |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1177916)
I'm not a fan of PNPs in the first place, so the PNP on my own car wouldn't have been something i would have done, personally.
Car in question is a 95 with a 99-00 head, but running with the old CAS and shit, because 95 DIYPNP. I find this annoying, but not sure if it's annoying enough to pony up for an MS3Pro at the moment. Annoying to assembly my own MS3X if it was a step up? Yeah. Maybe. But it's not, so nope. Bummer. Trivia: The MS3-Pro was more or less the original MS3 design plan. The MS3 V3.0 / V3.57 option was put together as (1) a proof of concept that would allow us to test things out, and (2) because when the MS3 proposal came out, a lot of people wanted an upgrade path for the V3.0s. |
So what's the functional difference between the MS2 and MSPnP2? Former requires harness fab?
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the MSPNP2 runs on MS2--so there's no functional difference.
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Originally Posted by huesmann
(Post 1210447)
So what's the functional difference between the MS2 and MSPnP2? Former requires harness fab?
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Originally Posted by bahurd
(Post 1210451)
You did read the very first post of this thread right?
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MS2 is a CPU/software.
anything running MS2 (MSPNP2, DIYPNP, MS2 v3.0) can all be identical function wise. MSPNP2 makes it easy--it's plug and play and turn key. DIYPNP require assembly and still PNP once complete. MS2 CPU on a v3.0 or v3.57 PCB requires assembly, harness, and in most cases added external circuits/modifications for basic functions of the above two. |
Another thing that could use an update - we have now introduced MSPNP Pro units for '90-'93 and '94-'95 applications. '99-'00 is up next, and if there's enough interest, we could make a '96-'97.
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Will there ever be a diymspnp pro?
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1210500)
Will there ever be a diymspnp pro?
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I thought the mspnp-pro had more features/speed/etc/etc.
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the MSPNPPRO utilizes the MS3-PRO module, yes.
Frank's PCB is pretty much a DIY-MS3PRO: MS3 Pro pcb V2.0 | Frank's Westfield MX5 MS3 Pro pcb V2.0 | You'd buy a MS3-PRO module, build his PCB, bolt the module to his PCB, and then install--ultimately ending up with a "MSPNP-PRO". I had a MS3-Pro, and just soldered a miata connector at the end of the supplied harness, and had it running within an hour. |
Ok, makes sense. Thanks
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12 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1176665)
Note that I am focusing only on offerings from DIYAutoTune, which is considered by most to comprise the "mainstream" MS product line. There are also some excellent Miata-specific MS-based ECUs available from MSLabs, however I am not particularly knowledgeable about those.
Right now, we have 3 product lines - The Basic MS2 - The Enhanced MS2 - The Basic MS3 These 3 lines are available for ALL the 90-05 Miata: - 90-93 (US) and 94-97 1.6L (Europe and Japan, possibly elsewhere) - 94-95 1.8L - 96-97 1.8L - 99-00 1.8L and 1.6L - 01-05 1.8L and 1.6L - 04-05 1.8L MSM (you haz trubo) - The Basic MS2 is our entry-level plug and play ECU for the Miata/MX-5. This ECU has all the functionality necessary to run the engine without any performance loss (save for the 01-05 with the VVT). This includes controlling the fuel pump after removing the AFM, A/C with idle-up, etc. Basic EBC and simple table switching are also provided. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952 - The Enhanced MS2 is an MS2 on steroids. It has all the features any other MS2 has, and adds unique features, like: + OBD-II output + Digital wideband input for a perfect, error/noise-free AFR input + VSS input + Dual fan control with idle-up + Advanced A/C support + Advanced knock control with bandpass filters, knock windowing and adjustable thresholds per RPM + EGT input * Sequential ignition AND injection + Adjustable alternator control (99-05) + Immobilizer support (01-05) + Dedicated VICS/VTCS outputs (99-05) + Advanced boost control with 2 open loops tables (select with an external switch), 1 closed loop table, open loop boost by gear + Oil pressure input + Oil temperature input + Valet mode + Power steering idle-up + Advanced launch mode + Independently enabled flatshift + CEL warnings for overheating, knocking, low oil pressure, high oil temperature, high EGTs + TEN terminal input to easily set the base timing and idle * Realtime barometric correction * 2 free programmable outputs All features with a (+) are EXCLUSIVE to the Enhanced MS2 - no other MS2-based ECU has these. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952 The Basic MS3 - despite it's humble name - is a full-fledged MS3 ECU. It has everything you would expect it to have: - Sequential injection - Sequential ignition - Dual fan control - A/C control - VICS/VTCS output - Electronic boost control - VVT control - Advanced knock control with knock windowing - VSS input - E85 sensor input - 3 free programmable outputs - 5 free analog inputs with selectable internal pull-ups - Alternator & battery light control (99-05) - SD Card datalogging with real-time clock and internal battery backup. The SD card slot is accessible so that you can pop card in at any time without opening the case. - USB and serial port https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1425064952 Feel free to PM me with any questions on these ECUs. Dimitris |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1210539)
It's called: ask Frank to make more connector boards.
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yeah you save roughly $200-250 or so and have a really slick case --definitely the best option for NB owners.
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1210500)
Will there ever be a diymspnp pro?
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Thats what I have already. I was interested I'm the speed and features of the pro. Then I realized you already had a pro module. Which is 850$.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 1210586)
Let me help. :)
... edited to save page ... |
I have a fun list of requirements, what to buy?
1) Knock detection/control. I was really impressed with the knock sensing/control options on hhammerly's car. I want that. 2) I do NOT want PNP in any form. I need to build a new harness. 3) As cheap as possible, as expensive as necessary What buy? I feel like the DIYPNP is the value leader in the original post, but i do NOT want the PNP portion of it. Is there an option with that cpu/board that isn't? |
Originally Posted by ofspunk7
(Post 1211474)
I think adding Rev's post to the 1st post may be a good idea, vs page 3.
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Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1215063)
What buy? I feel like the DIYPNP is the value leader in the original post, but i do NOT want the PNP portion of it. Is there an option with that cpu/board that isn't?
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Micro...rdware-3.3.pdf |
Outside of the Enhanced MS2, no other MS2-based ECU that I know of has good knock control (or even decent to be honest). This includes all Microsquirt module variants.
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Why not MS3+MS3x?
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I'm not against it. Was mostly trying to see what the cheapest option for my needs would be.
Rev, do you do ms2e in NOT pnp form? |
The microsquirt ECU is $300. that's going to be your cheapest:easiest option far from building a v3.0 board with a MS2 daughterboard at $280. both will require a harness to be built, the microsquirt will need some pullups for your cmp/cmk signals and a MAP sensor.
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Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1215209)
Rev, do you do ms2e in NOT pnp form? |
If you can build your own harness you can build your own MS3.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1215219)
The microsquirt ECU is $300. that's going to be your cheapest:easiest option far from building a v3.0 board with a MS2 daughterboard at $280. both will require a harness to be built, the microsquirt will need some pullups for your cmp/cmk signals and a MAP sensor.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1215242)
Buy the MS2E + buy OEM connectors and pins + build your own harness
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1215244)
If you can build your own harness you can build your own MS3.
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Can anyone comment on the advantages/disadvantages of the the MSPNP pro and the mslabs basic ms3?
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