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Tune Review Needed!! Engine Blew Up Twice!
1 Attachment(s)
Need some input on my tune, which was tuned by a reputable miata tuner in my area.
My First Engine Setup Before It Blew Up
It was later conclude that the CAS and CAS wiring was faulty, ECU loses RPM signal for half a second from time to time. Which might be what happened when the engine is at 20 PSI and 6000 RPM, ECU loses RPM signal for half a second and no signal was sent to the ignition coil to fire which cause a misfire and blew a hole on the stock piston. This CAS issue was found when the new rebuild engine would run and idle perfect for 45 second but die abruptly for no reason, using throttle to keep the RPM up in 3000 range kept the engine running but with stumble every 30-45 second. Then I notice tunerstudio read 0 rpm for half a second when the engine is at 3000rpm. (This may not be the reason why the first engine blew up, more on this later) Cylinder 1 piston blew a hole on the front intake valve side and crack around the whole piston https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d64230e979.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...08d9830995.jpg My Second Engine Setup After The First One Blew Up
Same cylinder 1 blew up around the front valve side of this supertech piston. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...79a429e00d.jpg This was tune with a "Road Tune", basically no adjustment to the base timing map and is mainly focus on drivability. Tuner claimed there is nothing wrong with the tune and this base timing map for BP4W is what they have been using for 6+ years without any issues. However, I would like people to double-check and make sure there is nothing out of the ordinary both the timing map and the target AFR. Some people and the tuner argue that the rings gap are too tight, and there are also some that argue is tuning/ignition timing issue. Now that both engine blew up on the exact same cylinder and area with almost all new different /stronger parts lead me to wonder if its coincident or tuning/hardware issue. Both engine setup base timing have been set to 10 deg, (tuner checked it on the first engine as well) I have seen people running 30-40PSI making 400-500hp BP with E85 on Supertech Piston and Wiseco rings, with 0.017" top ring gap and 0.020" second ring gap and not blow up. I'm fully aware that E85 helps with the situation but I'm running at almost half the boost and making only half the HP. Below is a screenshot of the ignition timing table for anyone that doesn't want to open up the tune. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d08becb2f5.jpg |
Glancing through this "tune", this is quite possibly the ugliest ve table I've seen in a few years. this is worse than untuned
can we see some logs? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d5d0c2d908.png |
Unfortunately, I do not have any logs. The tuner have some logs when he tuned it, I doubt I'm able to get a copy of it tho.
That's the whole reason of me paying someone reputable to tune it so I don't have to mess with it because I'm really not good any at tuning. Tuner have been known pretty well around my area for many years(6+ years) for tuning turbo Miata. Mind pointing out the obvious why the VE table is the ugliest you ever seen? |
250 row might be tuned (20psi), but everything leading into boost looks like it would cause serious lean conditions. Looks like a lot of timing for 20psi too. I’m running out of pump gas limits around 330hp, 18psi, 10ish degrees, forged pistons. That’s conservative though. But you’re more boost, x1.5 timing, all on stock pistons. I’m also running a decent pump and 1050 injectors, with fuel pressure verification. You’re fuel map tells me you’re running out of fuel pressure. BPs all run out of steam around 6k, I’d expect VE to drop. But yours continues up.
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Umm, that is a lot of timing.
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Going to agree that is a lot of timing for 20psi. I've got a rods only EFR motor that I run around 16psi. I think in boost I have less than half that advance.
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Agreed with everyone above, timing way too advanced for 20psi
I see 16-17psi and my timing is around 10-11 at that boost running 93 octane; pretty much the same as Curly above, conservative but safe |
Get a new tuner. There was no coincidence there.
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Wait, did I read that right? NGK BRK5? Heat range "5"?
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It starts out ok, 100kpa should be around 28peak, immediately drop 3-4 by 2psi, then a degree per psi. Most rows should be every 1-2 psi, yours are just 25kpa, and after 200kpa youre only dropping .5 degree per row.
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Well, believe that was what I had before(on the first setup). I honestly don't remember. I when to Oreilly and I believe I bought the stock NGK copper plug for Miata from their system which I just looked it up and is 5 heat range (Definitely an oversight on my end, I didn't know any better back then :/ )
However, I did told my tuner about it during tuning, he didn't have too much concern about it and continue to tune it anyway, but did recommend to use colder plug. |
Are you going to tell us who this "reputable" tooner is so we can warn others?
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Originally Posted by William Yeng
(Post 1621278)
Need some input on my tune, which was tuned by a reputable miata tuner in my area.
Step 1 is finding another tuner. In a few hours, you'll know more about dyno tuning boosted BP's than the guy you are paying to blow your engines up. And yeah, way too much timing. Aggressive even for a street car E85 and I assume you're running pump gas. I didn't open the tune but Vlads screen cap doesn't look right. Pump gas needs to add close 10~20% as soon it transitions to boost. Parts of that table are barely 5% and stay on that same slope up to 15psi. That's not a "break in map" for pump gas. That's a race map for E85. Run heat range 7. We like BKR7EIX-11 NGK but there are other good options. |
The fact that he's at 90% eta-V (volumetric efficiency) at idle (<30kPa) leads me to believe there's either an exhaust leak, something wrong with the wideband, dying fuel pump/low fuel pressure, or horrible injector calibration. Basically something that would cause the ECU to think you need ~2x the fuel at idle to hit your lambda target.
A stock engine isn't even doing that at WOT at peak power FYI. You should be like half that at idle. |
So I downloaded MSpro basemap for BP4W off DIYautotune website and it seems like the ignition timing advance table is not too far off my "tuner" ignition table. I also downloaded another BP4W base map off Trubokity and it shows almost half the spark advance on boost compare to DIYautotune basemap. Just wanted to get you guys thought here on where the big difference?
My tuner pricing sheet said their "street tune" utilize the DIYautotune spark advance map and they do not tune spark advance on this non-dyno "street tune" which so far from my comparison, it seems to be somewhat true (a little more and less advance on some area but seems to be within a few degrees) Here is the ignition table from the MSpro base map I downloaded off DIYautotune. http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnpp_maps.php https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...00937d66c1.png Compare to the ignition table that my tuner use on my tune below https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5f60ca08a8.png And here is the Trubokitty.com base map that I downloaded which seems to be closer to what everyone is talking about, approx. half of the spark advance that I have on boost. It was downloaded from https://trubokitty.com/#/tune https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6eb9dcde6f.png For now, I will not mention who this tuner/company is before dive in deeper and figure out what is really going on. Trying to give them a benefit of a doubt and not ruin their reputation due to misunderstanding. |
So I downloaded MSpro basemap for BP4W off DIYautotune website and it seems like the ignition timing advance table is not too far off my "tuner" ignition table. I also downloaded another BP4W base map off Trubokity and it shows almost half the spark advance on boost compare to DIYautotune basemap. Just wanted to get you guys thought here on where the big difference?
My tuner pricing sheet said their "street tune" utilize the DIYautotune spark advance map and they do not tune spark advance on this non-dyno "street tune" which so far from my comparison, it seems to be true. Any explanation on the differences? Here is the ignition table from the MSpro base map I downloaded off DIYautotune. http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnpp_maps.php https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...00937d66c1.png Compare to the ignition table that my tuner use on my tune below https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5f60ca08a8.png And here is the Trubokitty.com base map that I downloaded which seems to be closer to what everyone is talking about, approx. half of the spark advance that I have on boost. It was downloaded from https://trubokitty.com/#/tune https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6eb9dcde6f.png For now, I will not mention who this tuner/company is before dive in deeper and figure out what is really going on. Trying to give them a benefit of a doubt and not ruin their reputation due to misunderstanding. |
Bro, you literally paid this tuner to blow up your engine. Twice. And you won't tell us who it was?
Those two base map ignition tables are not the same. Nor are they for the same application. In either case, a base map is to get the car to start up and run well enough to actually TUNE it in. So, i'm confused what you're actually asking. What do you want us to tell you? |
100kpa and below, (except the idle area) that looks good for lots of torque on 93 octane, but it's aggressive.
100-150kpa could maybe be debated, but it's aggressive on 93, especially in the midrange. Above 150kpa, that's crazy on 93. That table is only 1-2 degrees more conservative than my race E85 tune when I have a backup engine ready to go. In fact in the midrange I still don't run that much timing even on E85 (right or wrong). |
Imagine a "tuner" uploading an NA basemap on a turbo car and not tuning it.
Then charging the customer for it. Wow. |
Originally Posted by Erat
(Post 1621473)
Bro, you literally paid this tuner to blow up your engine. Twice. And you won't tell us who it was?
Those two base map ignition tables are not the same. Nor are they for the same application. In either case, a base map is to get the car to start up and run well enough to actually TUNE it in. So, i'm confused what you're actually asking. What do you want us to tell you? After spending more time comparing the 2. Yeah, the 2 ignition table (DIYautotune and mine) are significantly different and the one from DIYautotune appears to be mainly for NA application obviously. Since that is the case, how do you guys generally come up with the numbers on the ignition table on a road tune (no dyno) if there is no knock sensor or any detonation detection device? Trying to figure out how he even come up with that ignition table and tell me that is a "conservative" ignition table. |
Well, I don't think here is a misunderstanding on your side, you have two blown engines in your garage.
To your point "Trying to figure out how he even come up with that ignition table": There is like a 1 : 1000000 chance, that wondrously all the cars he tuned were 8° retarded in base timing, but this simpy can't be, so... |
Yeah, that's a shit ton of timing for 250 kPa. Fuel map is definitely a little rough and tumble.
The AFR table's highest bin is 200 kPa and set to 11.4 AFR which would also have been targeted at 250 kPa, too lean for that boost level IMHO. EGO Control is set up to be active under WOT; not necessarily a problem if the authority tables are used properly, but this tune is allowing 20% authority under all conditions. Having the ability to pull 20% fuel at WOT/full boost is giving the MS a really, really long leash. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...507c5477b7.png |
Well it’s below 150% tps, so it’ll never activate.
11.4 IMO is the richest you’d want to target, I don’t think any richer is called for. Keep in mind if you target 11.4, you’ll often be running 11.2-11.6. |
Why would it never activate when the condition is literally set to ACTIVE below 150% TPS? So any TPS value from 0-150%?
Did I misinterpret what it meant? |
You are right, active below 150% tps is always ON.
My MTX-L burnt the second sensor in 1000 miles a few days ago, coming up with BS numbers, could potentially blow up my engine with 20% authority at max boost reading full rich |
1.5.2 release has separate positive and negative authority tables. Use them.
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Yes my apologies, I read that backwards.
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I'm scared switching from 1.4. Maybe I should look into it, but right now I'm very happy how my car is running. Not much time for the car right now, just happy to drive every few weeks
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8 Attachment(s)
I actually found the datalogs from my tuner during the day that he tuned it.
Can someone help me review these logs and see if there is any obvious problem? |
The 2nd and 4th log you posted are dyno pulls, the 3rd one is an aborted pull by 5000rpm, also started logging late at 3600rpm, 1st one looks like it's in 2nd or 3rd gear, not sure why, so I'll ignore those.
First one has a max duty cycle of 102%, other one 107%. So you're either running out of injector or fuel pressure. Usually BP's run out of steam above 6000rpm, but since your VE continues to climb, I would usually suspect your fuel pump. But your AFR also drops from a little above your 11.4 target, going from 11.7 to finally 10.7, so your fuel pump might be fine, you just don't need the fuel. Your dead times look wrong, most should be at or around 1.0ms, yours is at .7, not sure if that'll make your max DC calculation better or worse. You're revving the engine to 7500, nothing in your setup would make me rev this past 7000, maybe 7200 if the owner really wanted it. Boost is seems well controlled at 225kpa, or around 18psi. You never hit the supposed 20psi they were saying, so that's a crumb of good news. Spool is incredibly slow, you didn't hit that 18psi until 5000rpm, I would expect quite a few hundred RPMs quicker spool. Looking at your tune there's a dip in VE in the 5500 column, goes from ~134 at 5000 to 131 at 5500, to 136 at 6000. This corresponds to a lean spot in the log, the only place you're over your target, running briefly at 11.7. If they actually wanted 11.4 (as I said earlier, this is a little rich), they could have at least tried to hit 11.4, rather than leaving this obvious "lean" spot. The full throttle portion of the logs only seems to take 2 seconds, which tells me the operator is in 2nd or 3rd rather than 4th (5-speed), add a gear to those figures if you've got a 6-speed. Not sure why they're doing that. That might explain the slow spool. I think that's enough issues for tonight. I saw all of the above literally on the default settings Megalog viewer opened with, so there may be more. |
Reminds me of this D-bag, Sticky Second pistons set burned... please helpelior77.
Either its him trolling you guy's or that's his tuner which is just as bad. So much wasted talent on this thread. |
I don't think there is a chance for it to be the same tuner, since he is at Isreal and I'm at the midwest of US.
My tuner has been avoiding any responsibility and been really assertive that there is nothing wrong with his tune which he have been using the same ignition map over 6+ years including his own turbo miata and other shit box turbo miata that he had tuned over the years |
Originally Posted by William Yeng
(Post 1621704)
I don't think there is a chance for it to be the same tuner, since he is at Isreal and I'm at the midwest of US.
My tuner has been avoiding any responsibility and been really assertive that there is nothing wrong with his tune which he have been using the same ignition map over 6+ years including his own turbo miata and other shit box turbo miata that he had tuned over the years |
I'm just speechless. That guy is ruining your whole miata experience.
You spent hours and hours and lots of money and there is an unknown guy out there who you PAY for to blow your **** up, crazy... Time for a leak |
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It's definitely time to share the name of the tuner.
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It's pretty clear to me that the tuner is Faeflora.
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Originally Posted by thebeerbaron
(Post 1621740)
It's pretty clear to me that the tuner is Faeflora.
But seriously: everyone and their mother has suddenly become a master tuner over the past 2 years. They are Youtube/Instagram/Facebook certified, which is the highest level of certification there is, obviously. |
The tuner is Adam from Ohio ECU Solution. Prior to this I have not seen or heard any bad review against them and they have been the general recommended tuner for miata owners around this midwest area for the past 6-7 years. I believe they have another guy up at Detriot Michigan area that they share the same ignition table and basic setting on the tune.
To be fair , he did offer to retune and retard the ignition timing map and said if that makes me feel more comfortable and also will continue to support me but continue to denied any responsibility of the ~$4000 in damages from blowing up 2 engines. The most frustrating/ridiculous part of this situation is my engine blew up twice and he did not even review his tune this whole time and straight up blaming my engine built and mechanical failure. I found this out after asking him to send me the datalogs and he said he might have cut and paste the tune folder to me instead of copy and paste, because he could not find the whole folder that contains the tune and datalog in his laptop. Crazy to see how someone is that confident he did not make any mistake with this tune and did not review it even after my engine blew up TWICE the same way, yet he can barely keep track or handle a simple copy and paste a folder :dunno: Take this just like any other business review, you can decide if they should be blame or not. There is still a chance that it could be mechanical wrong with my car but the chance of it is fairly low since everything in my car that could contribute to the same failure are brand new Mazda or named brand parts. |
Did you sign or make any agreements that would absolve him of any liability in the event of damage? Was it remote tuned or in person?
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No, I did not sign any agreements. This was tuned in person where I show up to his house. This was a "Street Tune" not tune on a dyno.
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Also, note that the tuner and his team continuously blame my wiseco recommended ring gap is too tight at 0.017". Yet that is what Wiseco recommended for turbo application, I told him I would trust Wiseco recommended ring gaps than whatever gap they think it should be, just to escape responsibility.
I told him I would rebuild this motor again with whatever ring gap they want and if the motor blow up the same way again, does that means they finally will admit they are wrong and reimburse $5000 in damages? He said he would rather I built the motor to the specs I want because none of them are professional engine builder and the ring gap is their best guess and he will offer to detune it once I get it running again. It was just a constant contradicting logic from his end. |
Originally Posted by William Yeng
(Post 1621780)
No, I did not sign any agreements. This was tuned in person where I show up to his house. This was a "Street Tune" not tune on a dyno.
As a technician I have the responsibility to fix a customers car properly. If something goes wrong, an improper or incorrect repair is made then my shop and/or myself is open to being taken to court. It varies by state but usually it goes through small claims courts. In my 15 years of automotive repair I've only gone to court once. I showed the woman the fault with her car before repairs were made and she acknowledged them. The repair for that component was declined but she still proceeded with other repairs that she came in for. She even said in court that she was told about the issue before repairs to her car were made. The judge ruled in their favor because my shop manager did not notate on the repair order that the issue was present and had no customer signature to back up the claim she was notified even though the woman directly said she was told about it. All this leads me to suggest to you to consider the same path. The only problem is that you've modified the car beyond it's normal operating conditions and the fact you bypassed and modified the engines operating computer. It's generally known that modifying and tuning a car increases the risk of failure. But if someone is doing tuning or modifications recklessly and not advising customers then maybe you have a leg to stand on. My recommendation is to reach out to other tuners. Especially with experience and solid known backgrounds. Have them review the tune, look at image's of engine damage. Maybe one or two will write a good affidavit to help your case. |
Yes cash deal, no receipt but do have full conversation record on messenger with their pricing sheet and details on the meet location and time.
Yes, I thought about taking this to court but the trouble and uncertainty might not be worth it. Having it review by professional tuner is definitely the way to go for credibility in court. |
Better save all those messages before they delete them. If you have ATM records taking out the cash that would probably help as well (not your lawyer).
Small claims is a lot less trouble than most avenues. I would imagine less than $3000 worth of trouble. |
I'd be truly shocked if you got anything out of a trip to court. You paid a random amateur to tune your car. This wasn't some legit speed shop. IMO you're S.O.L and all you can do is learn from the experience. Either learn to do things yourself or pay an actual business to do it for you.
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No idea who Adam is.
@redturbomiata / Tadd know about this? He hasn't been on in a few years. He is / was(?) the owner of Ohio ECU solutions. |
Yes, Tadd do know about this because all the conversation is in their company group chat, all three of them suggested my piston ring gaps are too tight when it was gap to Mazda spec (first engine) and Wiseco turbo application (second engine). I bought my MS3X from Tadd. Charles/Charlie is one of them who is up at Detriot Michigan area.
I believe Tadd only sell ECU and Adam take care the tuning side of things. |
I went back over your original post, you said the same cylinder cracked two pistons in the same spot? Has the block and head been checked and verified to have no issue? Any other signs of damage to any other pistons or valves?
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Originally Posted by L337TurboZ
(Post 1621855)
I went back over your original post, you said the same cylinder cracked two pistons in the same spot? Has the block and head been checked and verified to have no issue? Any other signs of damage to any other pistons or valves?
No sign of damage on the other cylinders on the first time it blew up (stock pistons), still taking the engine apart for the this rebuild so can't tell what I'm going to find yet. Boroscrope seems to show some detonation mark on second piston skirt but will need to confirm with my naked eyes when the engine is apart, hopefully tomorrow. |
20psi…
Here I am running 16psi, EFR, 5spd and on a street tuned rods only build. I fear 20psi |
This is my theory, on gas, 10-12psi is your friend, 13-15psi will dip into your wallet and 16psi+ will require a new engine and trans. E85 is totally different. Billy was off his rocker thinking he could run 20psi with cast pistons. Was destine to blow up from the beginning. The ace tuner just sped up the process.
Originally Posted by natewin
(Post 1621865)
20psi…
Here I am running 16psi, EFR, 5spd and on a street tuned rods only build. I fear 20psi |
Originally Posted by LeoNA
(Post 1621885)
This is my theory, on gas, 10-12psi is your friend, 13-15psi will dip into your wallet and 16psi+ will require a new engine and trans. E85 is totally different. Billy was off his rocker thinking he could run 20psi with cast pistons. Was destine to blow up from the beginning. The ace tuner just sped up the process.
Not to mention, this blew up on Supertech forged billet piston at 20 PSI as well. So cast piston and 20PSI is not the problem with proper tune and setup. Furthermore, I did not tell my tuner what PSI i want to run, I just told him to utilize the turbo I have but still reliable based on his experience and he decided 20 PSI is good. |
I guess you know better then me. Your on your way to blown up engine #3.
Originally Posted by William Yeng
(Post 1621888)
LOL sounds like somebody act like he know what he is talking about here. Cast pistons can run 20 PSI all day with proper tune, it is well known that stock miata piston can handle 300HP. My Mazdaspeed 3 with stock engine and stock cast Aluminum piston run 22PSI all day any day with over 200k miles LOL
Not to mention, this blew up on Supertech forged billet piston at 20 PSI as well. So cast piston and 20PSI is not the problem with proper tune and setup. Furthermore, I did not tell my tuner what PSI i want to run, I just told him to utilize the turbo I have but still reliable based on his experience and he decided 20 PSI is good. |
:facepalm:
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We're jut having some fun since this was stupid from the beginning. Boost pressure is not a great metric but when the hardware is similar and the fuel is a constant you would be surprised how close these rules of thumb actually can be.
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I want this to stay on topic as well. It's important we know who tuned it, what the failure was/why it failed, and what will be done to get his car back on the road running right.
So far we know one and a half of these things. We still don't know for sure why it failed. Especially on the same cylinder twice. That's either extremely coincidental or there was a specific reason. This information could be helpful to others in the future. We can blame tuning as part of it, we all agree on that. But the pistons failed in the same spot, on the same cylinder very quickly. That to me is odd which is why I suspect it's a combination of things |
Too much timing, not enough fuel, too hot of a spark plug and too much boost. The one cylinder vs others could be the leanest injector if the position was same on both builds, or more likely the cylinder with the least cooling.
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Finally got it tear down and have a closer look at the cylinder. All other cylinders appears to be fine with no detonation mark.
Here is the damage on cylinder 1. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...475df79c6.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ed4213981.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3b3d3e9ca.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f6a15351a.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ec4709437.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a8abf9326.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...64ec3eeef.jpeg Does not appear to be ring gap failure to me. Here is how the other cylinders looks like. No sign of long term detonation marking. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...10ff2bffb.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f745b75ee.jpeg |
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