William Yeng

Need some input on my tune, which was tuned by a reputable miata tuner in my area.

My First Engine Setup Before It Blew Up

• BP4W on NA8 miata
• BP4W stock piston and compression ratio 9.5:1
• Stock piston oil jet
• Rings gap were set to Top=0.016"-0.017" and Second=0.022"-0.024"
• Rings have 10k miles before engine blew up
• Garrett GT2860 ball bearing turbo
• Flyin miata turbo outlet and 2.5" downpipe
• Ebay 1.8 cast manifold
• Magnaflow Cat
• Yonaka Catback Exhaust
• Maxpeeding Connecting Rods
• Stock NA8 ignition setup with blue NGK plug wires
• NGK BKR5ES-11 Spark Plug (Default gap 0.044")
• Brand new 700cc Deatchwerk injectors
• Stock fuel pump from 1997
• Fuel pressure regulator from a 2000 Mazda Protege (Similar if not same pressure as stock NA Miata FPR)
• Stock PCV system and no catch can
• Boundary Engineering S1 Oil Pump
• Brand new stock harmonic damper
• ARP headstud
• Coolant reroute with Ebay radiator and mishimotor radiator fan shroud and upgraded Spal Fan
• Mac valve electronic boost controller
• 14point7 Spartan 2 wideband
• Running on MS3X
• Running on Speedway+Costco 93 Octane when it blew up

This first engine setup it blew up after exactly 30 miles after the road tune by this reputable Miata tuner. It was tuned to 20 PSI when the throttle is at 80%-90% (Don't recall the exact number) Road tune for approx. 30 miles with few WOT pull without any problem.
It was later conclude that the CAS and CAS wiring was faulty, ECU loses RPM signal for half a second from time to time. Which might be what happened when the engine is at 20 PSI and 6000 RPM, ECU loses RPM signal for half a second and no signal was sent to the ignition coil to fire which cause a misfire and blew a hole on the stock piston. This CAS issue was found when the new rebuild engine would run and idle perfect for 45 second but die abruptly for no reason, using throttle to keep the RPM up in 3000 range kept the engine running but with stumble every 30-45 second. Then I notice tunerstudio read 0 rpm for half a second when the engine is at 3000rpm. (This may not be the reason why the first engine blew up, more on this later)

Cylinder 1 piston blew a hole on the front intake valve side and crack around the whole piston




My Second Engine Setup After The First One Blew Up

• BP4W on NA8 miata
• 83.5mm Supertech 9.5:1 ratio forged piston with Wiseco XX rings combo from Supermiata (.5mm oversize from stock)
• Stock piston oil jet
• Rings gap were set to Top=0.017" and Second=0.022" per Wiseco XX ring recommended rings gap for turbo application and bore size
• Rings have ~1000 light-load break-in miles (7PSI or less) and ~100 high-load miles (20PSI)
• Garrett GT2860 ball bearing turbo
• Flyin miata turbo outlet and 2.5" downpipe
• Ebay 1.8 cast manifold
• Magnaflow Cat
• Yonaka Catback Exhaust
• Maxpeeding Connecting Rods
• Stock NA8 ignition setup with blue NGK plug wires
• NGK BKR7E Spark Plug, gap to 0.025"
• Same only used 600miles 700cc Deatchwerk injectors, been sent out professionally flow tested and was deemed to be within manufacturer spec. Injectors did not go back to the same cylinder as before
• Brand new Denso stock replacement fuel pump, been DIY flow tested (hooked up battery charger to get ~13.5V and monitored time to flow 1 gal of gas) ~160LPH (Calculated)
• Brand new Mazda fuel pressure regulator for a 2000 Mazda Protege (Similar if not same pressure as stock NA Miata FPR)
• Full PCV delete, enlarged valve cover PCV vents to a vented oil catch can
• Boundary Engineering S1 Oil Pump
• Brand new ATI damper
• ARP headstud and ARP mainstud
• Mishimoto oil cooler and bigger MSM factory oil warmer/cooler
• Coolant reroute with Ebay radiator and mishimotor radiator fan shroud and upgraded Spal Fan
• Mac valve electronic boost controller
• 14point7 Spartan 2 wideband
• Running on MS3X with same tune as previous setup
• Running on Circle K 93 octane when it blew up

The plan with the second forged bottom engine is to do some break-in miles both light-load and a little high-load if is deemed safe before I drive 6-7 hours to my tuner again to revisit/check the tune. Engine blew up before I was able to do that. AFR was observed to be around 10.5 to 11 when I'm at 20PSI / WOT.

Same cylinder 1 blew up around the front valve side of this supertech piston.



This was tune with a "Road Tune", basically no adjustment to the base timing map and is mainly focus on drivability. Tuner claimed there is nothing wrong with the tune and this base timing map for BP4W is what they have been using for 6+ years without any issues. However, I would like people to double-check and make sure there is nothing out of the ordinary both the timing map and the target AFR.

Some people and the tuner argue that the rings gap are too tight, and there are also some that argue is tuning/ignition timing issue. Now that both engine blew up on the exact same cylinder and area with almost all new different /stronger parts lead me to wonder if its coincident or tuning/hardware issue. Both engine setup base timing have been set to 10 deg, (tuner checked it on the first engine as well)

I have seen people running 30-40PSI making 400-500hp BP with E85 on Supertech Piston and Wiseco rings, with 0.017" top ring gap and 0.020" second ring gap and not blow up. I'm fully aware that E85 helps with the situation but I'm running at almost half the boost and making only half the HP.

Below is a screenshot of the ignition timing table for anyone that doesn't want to open up the tune.

18psi

iTrader: (76)

Glancing through this "tune", this is quite possibly the ugliest ve table I've seen in a few years. this is worse than untuned
can we see some logs?

William Yeng

Unfortunately, I do not have any logs. The tuner have some logs when he tuned it, I doubt I'm able to get a copy of it tho.

That's the whole reason of me paying someone reputable to tune it so I don't have to mess with it because I'm really not good any at tuning. Tuner have been known pretty well around my area for many years(6+ years) for tuning turbo Miata.

Mind pointing out the obvious why the VE table is the ugliest you ever seen?

curly

iTrader: (25)

250 row might be tuned (20psi), but everything leading into boost looks like it would cause serious lean conditions. Looks like a lot of timing for 20psi too. I’m running out of pump gas limits around 330hp, 18psi, 10ish degrees, forged pistons. That’s conservative though. But you’re more boost, x1.5 timing, all on stock pistons. I’m also running a decent pump and 1050 injectors, with fuel pressure verification. You’re fuel map tells me you’re running out of fuel pressure. BPs all run out of steam around 6k, I’d expect VE to drop. But yours continues up.

Ted75zcar

iTrader: (2)

Umm, that is a lot of timing.

natewin

Going to agree that is a lot of timing for 20psi. I've got a rods only EFR motor that I run around 16psi. I think in boost I have less than half that advance.

Dr.Sep

Agreed with everyone above, timing way too advanced for 20psi

I see 16-17psi and my timing is around 10-11 at that boost running 93 octane; pretty much the same as Curly above, conservative but safe

_slowboi

Get a new tuner. There was no coincidence there.

Reverant

iTrader: (10)

Wait, did I read that right? NGK BRK5? Heat range "5"?

curly

iTrader: (25)

It starts out ok, 100kpa should be around 28peak, immediately drop 3-4 by 2psi, then a degree per psi. Most rows should be every 1-2 psi, yours are just 25kpa, and after 200kpa youre only dropping .5 degree per row.

William Yeng

Well, believe that was what I had before(on the first setup). I honestly don't remember. I when to Oreilly and I believe I bought the stock NGK copper plug for Miata from their system which I just looked it up and is 5 heat range (Definitely an oversight on my end, I didn't know any better back then :/ )

However, I did told my tuner about it during tuning, he didn't have too much concern about it and continue to tune it anyway, but did recommend to use colder plug.

Erat

iTrader: (5)

Are you going to tell us who this "reputable" tooner is so we can warn others?

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Please let the Miataverse know who this "tuner" is.

Step 1 is finding another tuner. In a few hours, you'll know more about dyno tuning boosted BP's than the guy you are paying to blow your engines up.

And yeah, way too much timing. Aggressive even for a street car E85 and I assume you're running pump gas. I didn't open the tune but Vlads screen cap doesn't look right. Pump gas needs to add close 10~20% as soon it transitions to boost. Parts of that table are barely 5% and stay on that same slope up to 15psi. That's not a "break in map" for pump gas. That's a race map for E85.

Run heat range 7. We like BKR7EIX-11 NGK but there are other good options.

engineered2win

The fact that he's at 90% eta-V (volumetric efficiency) at idle (<30kPa) leads me to believe there's either an exhaust leak, something wrong with the wideband, dying fuel pump/low fuel pressure, or horrible injector calibration. Basically something that would cause the ECU to think you need ~2x the fuel at idle to hit your lambda target.
A stock engine isn't even doing that at WOT at peak power FYI. You should be like half that at idle.

William Yeng

So I downloaded MSpro basemap for BP4W off DIYautotune website and it seems like the ignition timing advance table is not too far off my "tuner" ignition table. I also downloaded another BP4W base map off Trubokity and it shows almost half the spark advance on boost compare to DIYautotune basemap. Just wanted to get you guys thought here on where the big difference?

My tuner pricing sheet said their "street tune" utilize the DIYautotune spark advance map and they do not tune spark advance on this non-dyno "street tune" which so far from my comparison, it seems to be somewhat true (a little more and less advance on some area but seems to be within a few degrees)

Here is the ignition table from the MSpro base map I downloaded off DIYautotune. http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnpp_maps.php


Compare to the ignition table that my tuner use on my tune below


And here is the Trubokitty.com base map that I downloaded which seems to be closer to what everyone is talking about, approx. half of the spark advance that I have on boost. It was downloaded from https://trubokitty.com/#/tune


For now, I will not mention who this tuner/company is before dive in deeper and figure out what is really going on. Trying to give them a benefit of a doubt and not ruin their reputation due to misunderstanding.

William Yeng

So I downloaded MSpro basemap for BP4W off DIYautotune website and it seems like the ignition timing advance table is not too far off my "tuner" ignition table. I also downloaded another BP4W base map off Trubokity and it shows almost half the spark advance on boost compare to DIYautotune basemap. Just wanted to get you guys thought here on where the big difference?

My tuner pricing sheet said their "street tune" utilize the DIYautotune spark advance map and they do not tune spark advance on this non-dyno "street tune" which so far from my comparison, it seems to be true.

Any explanation on the differences?

Here is the ignition table from the MSpro base map I downloaded off DIYautotune. http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnpp_maps.php


Compare to the ignition table that my tuner use on my tune below


And here is the Trubokitty.com base map that I downloaded which seems to be closer to what everyone is talking about, approx. half of the spark advance that I have on boost. It was downloaded from https://trubokitty.com/#/tune


For now, I will not mention who this tuner/company is before dive in deeper and figure out what is really going on. Trying to give them a benefit of a doubt and not ruin their reputation due to misunderstanding.

Erat

iTrader: (5)

Bro, you literally paid this tuner to blow up your engine. Twice. And you won't tell us who it was?
Those two base map ignition tables are not the same. Nor are they for the same application.
In either case, a base map is to get the car to start up and run well enough to actually TUNE it in.


So, i'm confused what you're actually asking. What do you want us to tell you?

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

100kpa and below, (except the idle area) that looks good for lots of torque on 93 octane, but it's aggressive.

100-150kpa could maybe be debated, but it's aggressive on 93, especially in the midrange.

Above 150kpa, that's crazy on 93. That table is only 1-2 degrees more conservative than my race E85 tune when I have a backup engine ready to go. In fact in the midrange I still don't run that much timing even on E85 (right or wrong).

turbofan

iTrader: (1)

Imagine a "tuner" uploading an NA basemap on a turbo car and not tuning it.

Then charging the customer for it.

Wow.

William Yeng

Well, I'm still in the process of working things out with this "tuner".

After spending more time comparing the 2. Yeah, the 2 ignition table (DIYautotune and mine) are significantly different and the one from DIYautotune appears to be mainly for NA application obviously.

Since that is the case, how do you guys generally come up with the numbers on the ignition table on a road tune (no dyno) if there is no knock sensor or any detonation detection device? Trying to figure out how he even come up with that ignition table and tell me that is a "conservative" ignition table.