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Old 10-15-2009, 12:17 PM   #21
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I was having a problem getting CL idle to work actually on my NB miata using the MS2 Alpha 3.0.3 code. Im not sure what is going on. When I use PWM Warmup, it works fine, but I tried CL idle, and the idle valve just drops flat on its face and doesnt move to any inputs or setting changes I make.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:23 PM   #22
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Have you asked about it on the msextra forum? Have you posted an msq? Datalog? Does it actually get into closed loop mode (there is an indicator that should light up in megatune if it does)? There are plenty of people using it (I use it on my rx7 and the corolla) who could help you.

I've heard that the miata valve requires a much higher frequency than most to work properly as well. The higher you set the frequency in ms2 the lower the resolution gets, so your best bet there is to build a circuit (I believe Jean of jbperf has one) that converts a low frequency to a higher frequency.

There is a thread over at msextra as well in the ms2/extra development section that goes over all the settings for closed loop idle.

The hardest part of closed loop idle is tuning when it actually engages closed loop. You do have to tune that and the PID loop for it to work though; you can't just turn it on and expect it to work right off the bat.

Ken
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #23
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Personally... if considering MS2 currently. I'd just wait for the spiffy new features of the MS3.

I hoping it is cheap enough and out in time for a new project of mine.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:32 PM   #24
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Not sure I'd wait. You can upgrade to ms3 later with minimal changes if you do a v3/v3.57 install. We think ms3 will be done by early December, but at this point it's a little up in the air.

Ken
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:37 PM   #25
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I havent asked directly about getting it to work since I have been having sync drop problems on cold starts and random sync drops at cruise. I might have found the problem recently, so I didn't really have any means to change to CL idle until I got it sorted out, but since you guys came to visit here I thought I would bring it up.

Anyway, In the alpha code, I know you guys set the frequency to a higher allowable multiple, max 15 IIRC. The old code only allowed 8. Does that dramatically reduce the resolution of the DC?
(edit: I just reread your post. hah.)

I tried running CL idle, and I tried changing many settings. The first time I tried it, I turned it on, and the idle didn't respond at all.

On TunerStudio, I have a Idle DC indicator to show me it's current DC, but it remained at a steady 28.9% which was the original setting that I had set for PWM warmup. I also noticed that on PWM warmup, 28.9 (29% set) was the minimum for idle activity. Anything lower than 28.9% the valve would not respond to changes. For example, If I set it at 5% and changed it to 10%, there was no change. If I changed it to 20% then to 25%, still no reaction from the motor. Then when it goes to 30%, I get idle valve movement and the idle increases. Hmmm...

I didn't know there was in indicator on MegaTune that showed when it entered CLidle.

Anyway, I tried the CL idle, and the 28.9% stood there like i said. I continued to play with the settings, but I still got no change. Finally, I didnt SOMETHING, I dont remember, but the DC would start at the cranking Idle from the start of course, then it would SHOOT UP to 60%, the maximum setting i set for the valve opening. BUT, the idle valve WOULDNT MOVE! It was stuck closed or something, as if it was still set at 28.9%

From that point, I decided there could be something wrong with the code, and I may downgrade to Final 2.1.1b beta firmware. I haven't got around to doing it yet.

If possible, I would LOVE to get this sorted as I would love to have a working CL idle.

I understand it requires tuning with the PID control, but IF the idle valve won't even respond, it's not really helpful.

Here is my MSQ. I have several different MSQs with changed settings, i.e. PWM warm up settings and PWM CL idle settings.

Thanks for the help in advance!
Attached Files
File Type: msq MSIIE Miata99 - CLIdle - Alpha Code 9-12.msq (70.8 KB, 50 views)
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc D View Post
I havent asked directly about getting it to work since I have been having sync drop problems on cold starts and random sync drops at cruise. I might have found the problem recently, so I didn't really have any means to change to CL idle until I got it sorted out, but since you guys came to visit here I thought I would bring it up.
No problem. Just want to make sure you know where to get the help.

Quote:
Anyway, In the alpha code, I know you guys set the frequency to a higher allowable multiple, max 15 IIRC. The old code only allowed 8. Does that dramatically reduce the resolution of the DC?
Yes, it does. At the lowest setting (1, 30 Hz) it's .4% resolution, at 15 it's 6%. That means the commanded duty will have to change by up to 6% before the signal changes.

Quote:
I tried running CL idle, and I tried changing many settings. The first time I tried it, I turned it on, and the idle didn't respond at all.
Most likely it didn't engage CL idle. If you fire up megatune the indicator will be at the bottom of the tuning screen (or was in 2.1.1 anyway, I've not done much with 3.0.x although this weekend I will start), you can see if it is engaging or not.

Quote:
On TunerStudio, I have a Idle DC indicator to show me it's current DC, but it remained at a steady 28.9% which was the original setting that I had set for PWM warmup. I also noticed that on PWM warmup, 28.9 (29% set) was the minimum for idle activity. Anything lower than 28.9% the valve would not respond to changes. For example, If I set it at 5% and changed it to 10%, there was no change. If I changed it to 20% then to 25%, still no reaction from the motor. Then when it goes to 30%, I get idle valve movement and the idle increases. Hmmm...
Sounds like the valve is closed until you get to 30%. That is not necessarily a problem. Both of my cars are similar (although they start opening around 15-20%).

Quote:
I didn't know there was in indicator on MegaTune that showed when it entered CLidle.
Yep, this is very useful for tuning the engagement settings.

Quote:
Anyway, I tried the CL idle, and the 28.9% stood there like i said. I continued to play with the settings, but I still got no change. Finally, I didnt SOMETHING, I dont remember, but the DC would start at the cranking Idle from the start of course, then it would SHOOT UP to 60%, the maximum setting i set for the valve opening. BUT, the idle valve WOULDNT MOVE! It was stuck closed or something, as if it was still set at 28.9%

From that point, I decided there could be something wrong with the code, and I may downgrade to Final 2.1.1b beta firmware. I haven't got around to doing it yet.
It sounds to me like you just need to go look at the thread I mentioned on msextra (MSx/Extra EFI • View topic - Closed loop IAC control: Documentation) and follow the instructions there. Just randomly changing things won't help.

I'm confident that there's no bug in the firmware, as I use the CL idle code myself on 2 cars, and have tuned it on 3 or 4 others with no issues. I believe this is most likely a tuning/hardware issue. The CL idle code doesn't work well with frequency settings above 4 or so, so you need to get that circuit that Jean offers, and then you have to understand what all the settings do and set them appropriately for your engine.

Quote:
Here is my MSQ. I have several different MSQs with changed settings, i.e. PWM warm up settings and PWM CL idle settings.

Thanks for the help in advance!
OK, I'll take a look when I get a chance, but please look at the thread I linked.

Ken
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muythaibxr View Post
Most likely it didn't engage CL idle. If you fire up megatune the indicator will be at the bottom of the tuning screen (or was in 2.1.1 anyway, I've not done much with 3.0.x although this weekend I will start), you can see if it is engaging or not.

It sounds to me like you just need to go look at the thread I mentioned on msextra (MSx/Extra EFI • View topic - Closed loop IAC control: Documentation) and follow the instructions there. Just randomly changing things won't help.

I'm confident that there's no bug in the firmware, as I use the CL idle code myself on 2 cars, and have tuned it on 3 or 4 others with no issues. I believe this is most likely a tuning/hardware issue. The CL idle code doesn't work well with frequency settings above 4 or so, so you need to get that circuit that Jean offers, and then you have to understand what all the settings do and set them appropriately for your engine.

Ken
I've read that thread about 4-5 times already. I actually have it saved on my computer before the forums crashed, so I have been reading it diligently. I figured it would have to do something with the resolution.

I went ahead and ordered the PWM converter board. Hopefully it will work better than what it was at.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:26 PM   #28
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Alright. If it still has issues after you get that board installed, please post over at msextra (I don't check here often) and we'll make sure you get help.

Like I said I know the code works if the valve does what it should, and I think this is the best way to make your valve do what it should.

Ken
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