Reaching MBT - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Methanol/Water Injection Place to talk about meth/water injection.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-26-2007, 09:19 AM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Smile Reaching MBT

Is it possible to reach MBT without the need for WI?
Reason i ask is - Pre WI i reached 192bhp, AFR,s were nice 12.5- 12.9, and timing was well advanced up to knock point (using J&S) pulled back a tad.
Took it to the dyno last night and fine tuned the AFR,S and with the WI set to come on at 5psi ,i pushed up the timing a little more- result was no knock but no increase in Overall BHP.
I then switched off the WI ,and repeated the run, same result (no power gain/loss).I pushed the timing up a little more and we lost BHP, added another 2deg and lost even more.
When i went back to my original timing map i gained back the power i had lost by previously advancing the timing.
Dyno operator suggested that i had reached MBT (with no WI), and by switching on the WI was indeed making the charge cooler- but i coulndt take advantage of it because when we advanced the timing we started to lose power.
Base timing of 14 deg,Running a fairly aggressive timing map adding all the way from +7degs idle - 2000, +4 degs 2000- 3500rpm, +3degs from 3500-5000rpm, then +5degs 5000-redline.

Charge temps showing 160degF (although suspect a little heatsoak at sensor), ambient air temps 50degF.

9:1 compression ratio.

Any comments/ideas?
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 10:37 AM   #2
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

it's absolutely possible... it depends on the motor (even among same motors since some are knock prone).

that means you can now figure out a way to use the WI to increase boost!
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 12:12 PM   #3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

I thought it ment that i had reached "my limit" and that no amount of more "tuning " would yield any power.
Cant get anymore air in (maxed out on both pullies), i can get more fuel in if i wanted (but need the appropriate proportion of air).

Its no big deal , just was looking for a second opinion really
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 12:15 PM   #4
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdoc View Post
Base timing of 14 deg,Running a fairly aggressive timing map adding all the way from +7degs idle - 2000, +4 degs 2000- 3500rpm, +3degs from 3500-5000rpm, then +5degs 5000-redline.
So I understand correctly, you are running a bade timing of 14 degrees BTDC, and *adding* an additional three to five degrees of advance?

I'd love to see your timing map. Is this all in the EMB, or is the J&S doing boost retard?
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 12:55 PM   #5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
So I understand correctly, you are running a bade timing of 14 degrees BTDC, and *adding* an additional three to five degrees of advance?

I'd love to see your timing map. Is this all in the EMB, or is the J&S doing boost retard?
Correct - not pulling ANY ,all my timing advance is done by EMB , and its not the latest version of J&S - so it only pulls timing (if /when it detects) from its sensor ,bolted onto side of block.
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 02:10 PM   #6
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

how many hp are you pushing the m45 doesnt flow terribly well
you might be at teh flow limit of the SC and not the tunning
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 02:11 PM   #7
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/M45flow.gif at 10 psi the m45 flows like 300 or so cfm this wont support alot of hp maybe 260 or so chp
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 02:25 PM   #8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
how many hp are you pushing the m45 doesnt flow terribly well
you might be at teh flow limit of the SC and not the tunning
192bhp
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 02:36 PM   #9
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

is that with correction. you might be hitting the 200 hp wall everyone else with a m45 runs into time for a mp62 for real power
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 02:44 PM   #10
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

Yep- thats with correction- och its no big deal, i,m happy with what ive done up to now .
Its all been interesting and fun
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 03:07 PM   #11
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdoc View Post
Correct - not pulling ANY ,all my timing advance is done by EMB , and its not the latest version of J&S - so it only pulls timing (if /when it detects) from its sensor ,bolted onto side of block.
Dude. Would you be willing to share your ignition map, or the .EM file? I'd love to see what you're doing with that.
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 05:00 PM   #12
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tampa
Posts: 780
Total Cats: 0
Default

That is impressive with the M45. I would be very happy with that. Here is my question, I am in the process of increasing the boost on my M45 system. I am running a 62.5mm pulley, about 8psi. I have supra injectors at the house, 150mm BBK, and I am waiting on a new fuel pump to come in. I also have the WI, which has controlled the ping just like I wanted it to do. Would I be able to get close to those numbers running a powercard or will I need to upgrade to the EMB? I have dibs on a bipes for timing control, and I will ditch the MSD once that comes in. Maybe this isnt the place to ask this question, feel free to move it if necessary. But I was just curious. Miata.netters annoy the crap out of me, so I never post Q's on that board. Most M45 questions on there lead too, the M45 is too small blah blah blah, get a M62, blah blah, dont bother......ect.
96rdstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 05:41 PM   #13
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

If i remember correctly you cant add timing with Bipes - so in that respect no, i,m not sure if a power card will be sufficient for 12psi-maybe i,m not sure.

An yeh get a MP62..... - JUS KIDDIN

i THINK EMB,s are fairly inexpensive these days anyway -and much more flexible than bipes/powercard combo
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 09:41 PM   #14
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

If i can run it on stock ecu with WI at 13 psi no problem then you can run it with your electronic gizmos.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 10:10 PM   #15
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tampa
Posts: 780
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdoc View Post
If i remember correctly you cant add timing with Bipes - so in that respect no, i,m not sure if a power card will be sufficient for 12psi-maybe i,m not sure.

An yeh get a MP62..... - JUS KIDDIN

i THINK EMB,s are fairly inexpensive these days anyway -and much more flexible than bipes/powercard combo

Well, I am looking to the bipes to be an improvement over the MSD that I currently have. My concern is fueling with the powercard. They "say" that the powercard has whatever built in already, but when you read on .net, you will have people slam it and say it doesnt work over 6psi, which I already know is not true. My AFR's look all squigly....This is a Dyno done on a dyno dynamics back in the late summer here in Tampa. Dont Laugh at my wimpy 150.5...
Attached Thumbnails
Reaching MBT-dyno-run-afr.jpg  
96rdstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 10:12 PM   #16
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

you are still 12 or so -1 so i dont think you would be to fucked up trying to up it abit, just keep an ear out for ping and see if you notice any improvement.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 10:15 PM   #17
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tampa
Posts: 780
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
you are still 12 or so -1 so i dont think you would be to fucked up trying to up it abit, just keep an ear out for ping and see if you notice any improvement.

Alrighty then. Let's see what happens. Thanks guys.
96rdstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 10:24 PM   #18
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

If it starts to go wrong all you have to do is lift. if you dont then well you know what will happen but lifting cures all the ills. Until you realy fix them.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2007, 04:28 PM   #19
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
akaryrye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central California
Posts: 2,526
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
you are still 12 or so -1 so i dont think you would be to fucked up trying to up it abit, just keep an ear out for ping and see if you notice any improvement.
I think hes got a good point, you might want to go like 3 - 5% leaner because it will raise combustion chamber temps, add more compression, but increase the likelyhood of knock so you would not be able to run as high of timing. I would be interested to see how thatworked out.
akaryrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2007, 08:42 AM   #20
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: scotland/Houston
Posts: 127
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
it's absolutely possible... it depends on the motor (even among same motors since some are knock prone).

that means you can now figure out a way to use the WI to increase boost!
Yeh-if that means injecting pre-blower i would like to - but ive got an TDR i/c and dont know if it would be a good idea -maybe the water may "pool" in the I/C ?
rockdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fab9Tuning's NC MX-5 Turbo Kit Discussion- EFR/Garrett V-Band FAB Prefabbed Turbo Kits 216 03-22-2017 05:00 PM
The "other" spool question stefanst DIY Turbo Discussion 44 09-28-2015 08:16 PM
Built 1.6l Engine, 1,820 miles Baxgordum Miata parts for sale/trade 19 09-05-2015 12:42 AM
IAC problems - think mine is goosed? richyvrlimited MEGAsquirt 0 09-27-2007 05:49 AM
I want 300 HP, opinions on my component list.. cjernigan DIY Turbo Discussion 32 03-01-2007 01:04 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:30 PM.