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Old 07-25-2015, 06:45 PM   #21
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Another thing he keeps ignoring, is that even when you suppress the det, you will still make mediocre power unless you can EFFECTIVELY cool the charge. The cooler the better.
When I ran my FFS on e85, I had no det, but without an intercooler the AIT's would hover over 200F, and no matter what you do, you won't make good power at those AIT's. The air is just too hot/thin. You keep adding timing and the car just stays at the same power level.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:54 PM   #22
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<p>Ian/Sparkybean, I can see that you're very determined to run water injection, and I'm not going to try to change your mind. I'm an ignoramus when it comes to water injection.</p><p>This is a genuine question, as I've already learned a lot from reading this thread. I'm not asking you to explain yourself because I doubt you, but because I want to learn from you.</p><p>What is it that makes you want to use water injection rather than an air-to-air intercooler? I perceive that as easier, simpler, and more predictable/proven. There must be some advantage to running WI that I'm missing.</p><p>Genuine post, not troll post.</p>
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:13 PM   #23
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This is what Vlad is talking about:

Your STI Doesn?t Need an Intercooler, Right? PERRIN Performance Official Blog

Bottom line, with hot air you just can't get the air molecules into the cylinder.

I'm going out to the garage now to piddle on my new intercooler tubing. I do have a basic CoolingMist system I'll be selling BTW.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
What is it that makes you want to use water injection rather than an air-to-air intercooler? I perceive that as easier, simpler, and more predictable/proven. There must be some advantage to running WI that I'm missing. Genuine post, not troll post.
I can tell you what I liked about running without an intercooler:

1. Engine cooling. OEM auto radiator. OEM air guide and undertray. Never any cooling issues whatsoever -- even when running AC or going hard on track -- and look where I live. I'll also tell you that engine cooling is my biggest worry now that I'm mounting up a FMIC.

2. Intake piping was gloriously short and simple -- basically followed the OEM routing.

You can see all of this in the silver car build thread. Bottom line, you can safely do this and there are some advantages to it. But big power isn't one of them.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:25 PM   #25
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<p>Thanks for sharing.</p><p>That seems to reinforce the idea that the way to go is still a big radiator, traditional intercooler, and a bit of ducting.</p><p>*insert THE MORE YOU KNOW infographic here*</p>

Last edited by Joe Perez; 07-25-2015 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Inserted "the more you know" graphic.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
<p>Ian/Sparkybean, I can see that you're very determined to run water injection, and I'm not going to try to change your mind. I'm an ignoramus when it comes to water injection.</p><p>This is a genuine question, as I've already learned a lot from reading this thread. I'm not asking you to explain yourself because I doubt you, but because I want to learn from you.</p><p>What is it that makes you want to use water injection rather than an air-to-air intercooler? I perceive that as easier, simpler, and more predictable/proven. There must be some advantage to running WI that I'm missing.</p><p>Genuine post, not troll post.</p>
WI can be easier to package, have less throttled volume, possibly weigh less (maybe), and you don't have an intercooler blocking airflow to your radiator or any other heat exchangers up front.

In reality, this sounds fantastic. But in my experience, you need an intercooler and it needs to work well to make the most power safely. If blocking airflow as a big concern (about the only one I mentioned that is actually a legit concern IMO), then do a small intercooler that's tube/fin design.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:28 PM   #27
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I'd like to offer another suggestion. Since the speed3s are DI and we cant just pop new injectors in when we run out of fuel, we have to add auxiliary injectors in the charge piping.

What you can essentially do is grab a split second box (or other stand alone fuel injector controller) and wire it in based off MAF voltage, MAP voltage, IDC ... any number of things, and basically just have 5 or 6 injectors total, using the ones in the charge pipes for chemical intercooling. The additional injectors could have their own little boss / rail, and just T off the existing low pressure line coming from the tank. From that point its just a matter of programming the desired IPW from the injectors for your needs. It sounds like a lot of work, but ive made a spreadsheet to calculate the IPW for me based of G/s needed and its really a simple just one and done as far as tuning is concerned. The only tricky part would be determining how much of each to use for proper cylinder distribution / cooling / and proper fueling.

I saw a picture forever ago of a ... pretty sure it was an R34 skyline doing this, but for the life of me i cant find that picture.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I'd like to offer another suggestion. Since the speed3s are DI and we cant just pop new injectors in when we run out of fuel, we have to add auxiliary injectors in the charge piping.

What you can essentially do is grab a split second box (or other stand alone fuel injector controller) and wire it in based off MAF voltage, MAP voltage, IDC ... any number of things, and basically just have 5 or 6 injectors total, using the ones in the charge pipes for chemical intercooling. The additional injectors could have their own little boss / rail, and just T off the existing low pressure line coming from the tank. From that point its just a matter of programming the desired IPW from the injectors for your needs. It sounds like a lot of work, but ive made a spreadsheet to calculate the IPW for me based of G/s needed and its really a simple just one and done as far as tuning is concerned. The only tricky part would be determining how much of each to use for proper cylinder distribution / cooling / and proper fueling.

I saw a picture forever ago of a ... pretty sure it was an R34 skyline doing this, but for the life of me i cant find that picture.
Did he just suggest e-cool?

I can't stop laughing

Oh this thread is gonna be fun
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Did he just suggest e-cool?

I can't stop laughing

Oh this thread is gonna be fun
I'm doing a 5th injector on my setup. Because I need more fuel and it will let me keep my 1K ID injectors mainly, but there are other benefits too.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I'm doing a 5th injector on my setup. Because I need more fuel and it will let me keep my 1K ID injectors mainly, but there are other benefits too.
That is a very patsmx5 thing to do.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
That is a very patsmx5 thing to do.



Once I priced a set of ID 1300's (900 dollars for four!!!), I about **** myself, then I started looking at other options to get a little more fuel. 5th injector seemed like the cheapest/most decent way to do it, it should come in under 250 dollars and won't affect my idle.
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Old 07-25-2015, 11:53 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Did he just suggest e-cool?

I can't stop laughing

Oh this thread is gonna be fun
I've tuned several cars with this set up, i can show you plenty of logs with substantial drops in boost temps on both pump gas and E-85, so if dude doesn't want to run an intercooler, i fail to see the real problem here?

Obviously the main solution would be an intercooler, but i feel what i suggested is more easily done, more effective, and safer than the wet compression solution that was initially suggested.
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:00 AM   #33
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<p>Intercooling is nothing new on a miata. And is easy.</p><p>See here:</p><p>https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...tercool-83180/</p>
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:07 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
I've tuned several cars with this set up, i can show you plenty of logs with substantial drops in boost temps on both pump gas and E-85, so if dude doesn't want to run an intercooler, i fail to see the real problem here?

Obviously the main solution would be an intercooler, but i feel what i suggested is more easily done, more effective, and safer than the wet compression solution that was initially suggested.
On a direct injection car this is for sure the more-or-less best approach to increase fueling. That's not really what the OP needs, needs cooler air temps.

For his miata, the OP should just install an intercooler. It's cheap, easy, works, and the only "downsides" are trivial. Intercoolers are even cheap, probably no more than a WI kit and they don't run out and have no moving parts.
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:09 AM   #35
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
they don't run out
</p><p>This x 1000.</p><p>What happens when you forget to fill the tank and you suddenly blow your engine.</p>
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:11 AM   #36
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<p></p><p>This x 1000.</p><p>What happens when you forget to fill the tank and you suddenly blow your engine.</p>
Well typically you nuke a piston when that happens, so you'll experience a loss of power, as well as a large cloud of blue smoke exiting the exhaust. Once, I even managed to blow the dipstick out of its tube about 2". I managed to datalog this last time I did it.
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
On a direct injection car this is for sure the more-or-less best approach to increase fueling. That's not really what the OP needs, needs cooler air temps.

For his miata, the OP should just install an intercooler. It's cheap, easy, works, and the only "downsides" are trivial. Intercoolers are even cheap, probably no more than a WI kit and they don't run out and have no moving parts.
Right, i wasnt addressing this from a "adding fuel," standpoint, though that is its original purpose. Its very simple calculations to just remove X amount of fuel from a MAF curve, and put it back in with an auxiliary injector and use the cooling as a by product.

Im in no way advocating this as a replacement for an intercooler, i am in favor of him just running an intercooler. I just believe that of the options offered, that this one is the most reliable, with the most controllable results.
The thing about using an injector tapped into the MAF / MAP, whichever, is that it gives you the ability to create an accurate fuel map that is spraying 100% of the time. This cools BATs (boost air temp, is that an acronym yall use here?) 100% of the time, cruising, idle, WOT... and not just wide open like a meth kit does. For the record i'm usually pro methanol, i actually have a methanol kit on my speed3, i just feel in this case you need something more controllable.
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Old 07-26-2015, 01:51 AM   #38
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Hey, I know . . . let's pull all these electronic gizmos, toss the FMICs in the dumpster and run oversized Holley double pumpers. Intake air temps should be like absolute zero if we do that, right?
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Old 07-26-2015, 02:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Right...
Listen dude, the sooner you stop constantly bringing completely irrelevant "knowledge" from other platforms into conversations to make yourself sound smart, and the sooner you learn miata's inside and out and actually start contributing, the sooner people will take you seriously. I can talk about other platforms all day long too, but in the end most of it is worthless and no one will care.

None of us even use maf's with the tuning solutions we have for a miata, or the fueling available. E-cool is idiotic on a car like this where intercooling is easy, cheap, and simple, and where we have plenty of fueling solutions. Suggesting piggyback controllers to someone using a megasquirt already is also silly.

We ridicule e-cool every day because of how archaic it is, you probably don't even know what FFS is and who [email protected] is and why we all laugh about it so often, and that's ok, but again: we don't have the silly problems ms3 owners have so why even talk about it?

If OP wants to be stubborn that's totally OK, if he wants to be different for the sake of being different, that's OK too. But we here at MT reserve the right to bust the ***** of everyone that does that, until they actually accomplish something worthwhile.

PS: I'm really not picking on you, I'm sure you're smart and tuned some cool cars, but they are nothing like what we're working with here, so it's really not helping folks.
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:56 AM   #40
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Megasquirt supports staged injectors, not that you'd want to use them. Dealing with the voltage offset on the wideband alone made me nuts, I can't imagine delivering fuel off some tapped in **** like that.

I vote we ban the abbreviation ms3 in relation to a speed3 on this forum, the latter is just a tiny bit longer and I can raed and comprehend fasterer.

I'm pretty sure I've made over 230 a few times, not totally intentional, with my hacked up mess of FMIC that cost less than any name brand WI kit. Complication for simplification is insane, I've given up on that crap.
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