Water Injection - A stealthy approach
This thread is AWESOME.
05-27-2010, 01:56 PM
#45
Elite Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,642
Total Cats: 36
I would love to see a comparo of IATs or something from a single nozzle system pre-TB and a direct port system. That is one badass setup.
Pretty much all the systems out there are PWM to the pump as opposed to variable voltage, its much better for pump longevity. Commie', one thing to consider here is that the newer pumps being used by pretty much everyone are much more reliable, but they have one hang-up for install. That is the fact that they have inlet and outlet fittings going right into the head-unit of the pump, no swivels. I have seen swivels available for them, and IMHO they are a bucket of crap, especially on an system you have put a lot of time into like this. SO when you do the pump location, you might want to make some allowance in regards to postioning and tube-routing so that if you do switch to the newer style, your not re-inventing the wheel.
Pretty much all the systems out there are PWM to the pump as opposed to variable voltage, its much better for pump longevity. Commie', one thing to consider here is that the newer pumps being used by pretty much everyone are much more reliable, but they have one hang-up for install. That is the fact that they have inlet and outlet fittings going right into the head-unit of the pump, no swivels. I have seen swivels available for them, and IMHO they are a bucket of crap, especially on an system you have put a lot of time into like this. SO when you do the pump location, you might want to make some allowance in regards to postioning and tube-routing so that if you do switch to the newer style, your not re-inventing the wheel.
Reply
0
0
05-27-2010, 02:01 PM
#46
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,847
Total Cats: 27
That is the fact that they have inlet and outlet fittings going right into the head-unit of the pump, no swivels
Yes! And I do not like it. My new DO recirculating shurflow is like this; the hoses go right into the pressure head. My old 150 psi pump (switch regulated) had fittings that I had nice DO 90 deg swivels on. Definitely more adaptable. I still got the new pump to work as-is with a little hose rerouting. But for someone with a really tight space it might not be so nice.
Maybe those quick fittings screw out of the head to reveal NPT fittings but I have not messed with it since mine fit as-is.
Reply
0
0
05-27-2010, 11:57 PM
#47
Elite Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,642
Total Cats: 36
Looks like they are press pressed in to me. The newer Auatecs are pretty badass, I had an older Shurflo pump in my Snow system that was great, but the Aquatecs seem to be smoother (recirc as standard, not retroed on) higher pressure, and also significantly lower amperage draw. A big Shurflow can pull almost 20 AMPs. Thats a lot of fricken juice at WOT. But the fittings are a PITA. I will get one when I get the darned car, but I will be putting some real thought to pump placement in relation to the tank.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 06:42 PM
#48
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
Done.
I finally buttoned it all up and had a chance for a test drive.
The result is very pleasing to say the least. I even added a couple of degrees of timing at the 3500 rpm range and did a couple of hard pulls on a long uphill portion of the freeway under the pretty hot noon sun... no ping, just smooth power.
The only thing that bothers me is, I had no way of getting clear across town to get distilled water, and used tap water instead.
I'll drain the tanks out and flush the system with distilled water as soon as I can.
I am planning on running straight water. Did a bit of research on the history of water injection; turns out alcohol was originally introduced into the mix as an anti-freeze agent back in the thirties and forties when this technology was used exclusively on military aircraft.
And water alone meets my purposes perfectly.
I will post pictures of the finished setup as soon as I can take some pictures during the day.
I finally buttoned it all up and had a chance for a test drive.
The result is very pleasing to say the least. I even added a couple of degrees of timing at the 3500 rpm range and did a couple of hard pulls on a long uphill portion of the freeway under the pretty hot noon sun... no ping, just smooth power.
The only thing that bothers me is, I had no way of getting clear across town to get distilled water, and used tap water instead.
I'll drain the tanks out and flush the system with distilled water as soon as I can.
I am planning on running straight water. Did a bit of research on the history of water injection; turns out alcohol was originally introduced into the mix as an anti-freeze agent back in the thirties and forties when this technology was used exclusively on military aircraft.
And water alone meets my purposes perfectly.
I will post pictures of the finished setup as soon as I can take some pictures during the day.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 06:51 PM
#50
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
I would love to see a comparo of IATs or something from a single nozzle system pre-TB and a direct port system. That is one badass setup.
Commie', one thing to consider here is that the newer pumps being used by pretty much everyone are much more reliable, but they have one hang-up for install. That is the fact that they have inlet and outlet fittings going right into the head-unit of the pump, no swivels. I have seen swivels available for them, and IMHO they are a bucket of crap, especially on an system you have put a lot of time into like this. SO when you do the pump location, you might want to make some allowance in regards to postioning and tube-routing so that if you do switch to the newer style, your not re-inventing the wheel.
Commie', one thing to consider here is that the newer pumps being used by pretty much everyone are much more reliable, but they have one hang-up for install. That is the fact that they have inlet and outlet fittings going right into the head-unit of the pump, no swivels. I have seen swivels available for them, and IMHO they are a bucket of crap, especially on an system you have put a lot of time into like this. SO when you do the pump location, you might want to make some allowance in regards to postioning and tube-routing so that if you do switch to the newer style, your not re-inventing the wheel.
* The kit I bought came with the bigger pump, and it sure has the swivel inlet and outlet fittings on it.
And, in the case you have a pump with fixed fittings, you can just google the nearest "Legris Pneumatic Fittings" dealer, and buy exactly what you need to do your plumbing. That's what I did for some of my tank fittings - I needed quite a few of those, one to feed the pump from the left side tank, and several to vent the tanks outside the car.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 06:57 PM
#52
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
True, but considering the actual time you spend in boost, that's not much. People drive for hours on end with their amps cranked - and not at elevated RPMs, mind you - and those amps are not exactly power misers..
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 07:02 PM
#53
Elite Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,642
Total Cats: 36
Awesome!
Its just such a great feeling when you can put the car through a really high load situation with 0 knock. Its like a weight off your chest.
Thats great about the fittings, I did not know that. Makes installtions a lot easier for sure.
Its just such a great feeling when you can put the car through a really high load situation with 0 knock. Its like a weight off your chest.
Thats great about the fittings, I did not know that. Makes installtions a lot easier for sure.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 07:06 PM
#54
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
Wow... This is really cool, really! I do not know where to start with the questions.
OK so where you put your nozzles the first time... I seriously considered placing them there but I did not think they would fit. Looks like they do, just barely, at least with the Aquastealth nozzles. So I am wondering why not just go ahead and run them there? Oh wait, you have not gutted your manifold right? I cannot tell from the photos. I think with a gutted upper plenum that putting them there is a nice idea. They fill the upper plenum with mist which helps with redundancy per my other discussion. Plus, they are directing the spray right into the throat of the runners which should also be good. Makes me think about moving mine there actually.
But that aside I like where you placed them on the upper portion of the manifold. If you have to mess with it, clearly it is easier to remove the upper portion than the lower portion. I did not place them there because I was concerned about hood clearance. But again, at least with the Aquastealth nozzles, they fit.
So I am guessing your progressive system is PWM on your pump motor? Have you played yet with the duty cycles to see what the mist quality is at low percentages? I'm curious about that for sure.
I think that bending tool you made for bending the PVC is great. Why I did not think to build something like that for all of the heat gun ABS bending I have done... it's not like I have never seen a sheet metal brake before
Next time I bend some ABS I am building one of those for certain 
OK so where you put your nozzles the first time... I seriously considered placing them there but I did not think they would fit. Looks like they do, just barely, at least with the Aquastealth nozzles. So I am wondering why not just go ahead and run them there? Oh wait, you have not gutted your manifold right? I cannot tell from the photos. I think with a gutted upper plenum that putting them there is a nice idea. They fill the upper plenum with mist which helps with redundancy per my other discussion. Plus, they are directing the spray right into the throat of the runners which should also be good. Makes me think about moving mine there actually.
But that aside I like where you placed them on the upper portion of the manifold. If you have to mess with it, clearly it is easier to remove the upper portion than the lower portion. I did not place them there because I was concerned about hood clearance. But again, at least with the Aquastealth nozzles, they fit.
So I am guessing your progressive system is PWM on your pump motor? Have you played yet with the duty cycles to see what the mist quality is at low percentages? I'm curious about that for sure.
I think that bending tool you made for bending the PVC is great. Why I did not think to build something like that for all of the heat gun ABS bending I have done... it's not like I have never seen a sheet metal brake before
Next time I bend some ABS I am building one of those for certain You will simply be starving #1, and drowning #4 that way.
The thing is, the nozzles will never be able to spray straight down in real life conditions. There is considerable airflow to direst the water spray sideways, towards the back of the plenum when the motor is running, especially in boost.
A pre-TB single nozzle would be far more a logical approach compared to four in-line nozzles inside the plenum.
Locating the nozzles inside the runners is a different, and much better solution since this method does not subject the water mist to laminar flow. The air at that particular point in the runner shall simply carry the spray from the respective nozzle to the intended destination, which is the corresponding combustion chamber that runner leads to.
A gutted out manifold would be much trickier to deal with in this very respect IMHO.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 07:08 PM
#55
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
None of the water injection outfits disclose that information for some reason. A bit of curiosity, a magnifying glass and google pointed me to the right direction.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 07:23 PM
#56
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,224
Total Cats: 3
That's really weird. I can even buy it in some large local supermarkets. Now, methanol is another matter.
Reply
0
0
05-30-2010, 07:34 PM
#57
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Posts: 3,214
Total Cats: 1,687
(I did several leak checks on the tanks off the car of course.. Leak checking in the car, with everything connected in real life conditions is another matter.)
There is an industrial supply company across town where I can buy distilled water 50 liters at a time for about 15 cents a liter.. Comes to $7.5 for five tankfulls!
Methanol is about 3 bucks a liter...
Reply
0
0
05-31-2010, 12:50 AM
#59
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,847
Total Cats: 27
Good to know
You know, now that I think of it that way, I think you may be right.
I am straddling the line between plenum spray and runner spray with the gutted out manifold. It is part of my redundancy scheme. If one runner's nozzle clogs it can still draw some water in from above the adjacent runners. But because of the way I have positioned the nozzle at least half of the spray for a particular runner is going in that cylinder for sure during its intake stroke.
But, all that being said I still agree that the top nozzle approach may not be ideal after all. Scratch that idea. I'm staying with what I have.
Well put. Totally agree.
FWIW I just bought a Innovate TC-4 so I am going to be able to log EGT as well; the Adaptronic will log a TC-4 and an LC-1 at the same time. The EGT probe is already in the collector, pre-turbine inlet. I plan to do the same and I am looking forward to seeing the logs.
All I need are my fuel injectors which will be back here next week.
I honestly think placing the nozzles on the top side like I did the first time around will be a mistake..
You will simply be starving #1, and drowning #4 that way.
The thing is, the nozzles will never be able to spray straight down in real life conditions. There is considerable airflow to direst the water spray sideways, towards the back of the plenum when the motor is running, especially in boost.
You will simply be starving #1, and drowning #4 that way.
The thing is, the nozzles will never be able to spray straight down in real life conditions. There is considerable airflow to direst the water spray sideways, towards the back of the plenum when the motor is running, especially in boost.
A gutted out manifold would be much trickier to deal with in this very respect IMHO.
But, all that being said I still agree that the top nozzle approach may not be ideal after all. Scratch that idea. I'm staying with what I have.
True, but considering the actual time you spend in boost, that's not much. People drive for hours on end with their amps cranked - and not at elevated RPMs, mind you - and those amps are not exactly power misers..
* I will be able to compare the EGTs as soon as I install my LMA-3. All I have to do is make run with the water injection disabled, and then one with it running..
All I need are my fuel injectors which will be back here next week.
Reply
0
0
