You really need to try out a Borg-Warner EFR 6258. It might be a very pleasant surprise for you.

You haven't heard? China chargers are where it's at! LOL this is like a joke. Don't try to convince Corky of anything, he always has to be right and he's already spoken.

"are where it's at! LOL this is like a joke. Don't try to convince Corky of anything,"

Sorry sir. I did not mean to sound obnoxious. I thought I said "in my opinion, or something along that line. I also think I said I prefer the Garrett.

corky

Skills Needed?
 

I guess I am asking what level of skills are needed to:


A. Install the turbo "kit" - assuming a complete package is purchased.


B. Change pistons, rods, oil pump and damper. Upgrade clutch. Injectors and ECU.


C. Any machine work needed, pull the crank and replace bearings, have the rotating stuff balanced, etc.


I think I can handle A. B is something I can get help with, unless machine work is needed or the crank needs removed.


Does the engine need removed, or just change rods and pistons in the chassis? Not that it's a big deal to pull the block and take it to somebody to have the internal work done if you are going that far.


I have a tuner I found with a Dyno that autocrosses a Mazdaspeed. Once the parts are installed, he can help me get it running right.


This would be a winter weekend(s) project for me. I don't want to deal with major fabrication or fitting multiple vendor stuff together that might not fit. Am I expecting to much. I think I can handle the FM kit. Good instructions and a complete package. Are there any others out there?

Buy a MSPNP Pro from diyautotune. Install it with a wideband. Install larger injectors. Turn up boost on the stock MSM turbo and enjoy it.

Unless you go the built motor route which will cost you $3000-$5000, the stock MSM turbo can make enough power to blow the stock motor.

Switching to an FM setup or Begi A/O you will still be limited to the power the stock block can handle. You will get better spool and maybe a little more top end, but overall not to much of an upgrade to power wise for a large cost.

Replacing rods and pistons requires work done at a machine shop. It gets expensive very quickly. Unless you really want 300+whp, I would suggest staying with a stock motor for the time being.

Good instructions and a complete package are to be assumed. Our habit of shipping in two seperate packages does not help establish the ""complete" notion. Despite four eyeballs, we miss a few.

FM can ship more timely than we can.

While an FM kit will serve you well, take a moment and examine what features and design quality you get from FM relative to the A/O. From chopping into the frame to rubber fluid lines, thermal management, air flow capability to sheer power per psi of boost, it remains my view that FM has not a single feature as well thought out and designed as the corresponding feature in the A/O.

Of course I would think so, I configured it.

I would strongly suggest that most fellows on this forum could examine the current FM and our old design and configure a system better that either one in virtually every conceivable feature. Many have put their efforts where their mouth is and built their own stuff and done a good job of it. With 50 + years of car performance stuff, I think it reasonable that I am also one of those fellows.

Corky

I think the problem is your kits make too much tq.

Corky,


The original purpose of this thread was to gather info on the alternatives to the FMII or Big Enchilada. I am open to options. I didn't get any feedback from anyone with an A-O installed. I respect your knowledge and experience.


I am interested in the A-O and just need more info and maybe some reassurance that it's a winter garage project and not something I need to pay to have installed. Looking forward to further discussions. Maybe this should be a phone conversation?

the A/O kit is too new to have much feedback from members here.

Didn't know how new the A-O is. Thanks.

I'd certainlly rather spend $5,000 on this kit than a particular supercharger kit that was just released that couldnt dream of making the power numbers this kit can support.

It is all new stuff. Started shipping about last July.... I think. Perhaps 15 shipped.

Installed another 6 here in SA. So far, so good.

A few changes from the original A/O: revised the CO tube. Insulated the TB inlet tube.
Am making a casting for the compressor inlet when the meter is deleted.
corky

Shuiend has given you the correct answer a number of times.

Buy a good ECU (MSPNP-Pro most recommended by those here).

Install larger injectors (you'll need these anyway) and larger intercooler (which you already have) as well as your exhaust.

Turn up the boost.

If you're not happy, build the motor and go from there. The stock MSM turbo setup is not optimal, but it is plenty capable. Unless you just want to throw crazy money at the build....

This. He wants to go spend 10 grand on car parts, when spending $1500 will make him happy.

I don't want to waste money. My impression was that I at least needed to do intake and exhaust such as the LE to go with the ECU and injectors. Incorrect?


The LE goes for $2k. The MSPNP and injectors is another $1800, or the BE for $4K. The full FMII is $5395 + exhaust.


So, $4K and stock turbo or $6K and get a Garrett. Then the internals can come later if I feel the need.


What's wrong with this math?

1. Incorrect. You should replace the ECU as soon as you can, it will make every other mod better. Yes, you will need to tune for the mods. If this is not up your alley and you just want to keep the stock ECU, you might as well not mod the MSM at all.

2. My MS and injectors were around $1,100. I don't know where you're getting your parts from but you're overpaying

You need to do more research before you spend a penny anywhere

I'll sell you a MSPNP and injectors for $1500.

The FM LE is probably a good bit of overkill. You can source most of the stuff yourself for cheaper.

What we are all trying to say is that you can make the MSM turbo a decent street setup without spending as much as you are. Here is a post that shows what the MSPNP-Pro will do to an MSM.

Start with the MSPNP-Pro and the flow force injectors. Get used to tuning the MS and get the car working well. Then decide if you are happy with the performance, or if you really do need more. If you need more at that time, then look at adding a 3" exhaust, bigger IC, better intake.

Doing the additional things should just about max out what you can make on a stock motor. If you end up not satisfied then you can look into building a motor and changing the complete turbo setup.

You shouldn't consider the full FMII, because MS > Hydra.

The given is MSPNP-Pro + Flow Force injectors = $1500

Since you need these two no matter what direction you would go, I would go for these first. Turn up the boost, get a good tune, and see what you think. Get an intercooler for $100 on ebay, and a piping kit for another $100. I'm not sure how the factory intake works on the MSM's, and if that's easy to recreate for cheap. Then you need to find a cheap 3" exhaust. Maybe Artech has a cheaper solution, or maybe you can just go to FM for that. Either way, sourcing your own intercooler solution will be much cheaper than the LE kit.

The bottom line is, the reason that there's little difference between $4k stock turbo and $6k Garrett, is because $1800 is a little overestimation, and the LE is overpriced for what it is. Another good option if you want the Garrett is the FMII no electronics, plus MSPNP Pro and Flow Force injectors. That totals to $4500.

Guys,
The guy wants to spend money on a proper setup. He's not trying to ghetto-rig anything like 99% of the silly kids that join these days. Why would we talk him out of it?

If he was like "omg gaiz I wann install powercard + obxR tacoburrito maniford and run ALLOFIT for d0r1fto" he'd need to be hazed.

He's wants to install a good setup, have it tuned, and never touch again.

I'll repeat what I said in response to his PM: get the fm msm upgrade or non-electronics kit. Get proper fueling and engine management of your favorite flavor (or your tuners). Install, have tuned, enjoy.

But here is the thing... We aren't trying to talk him out of doing a proper setup. Not at all.

If you do a 3" exhaust, big intercooler, and MSPro, then see how it feels. It might be enough! If it isn't enough, he can reuse ALL those parts as a basis for a full build.

Plus much of this is your fault Vlad. You're the one who raved about your MSM setup after owning several full builds :giggle:

Use case is very important. If you are full of mechanical empathy like vlad you might love the MSM settup. greddygallant has been eating stock msm turbos like no other when driven hard on the track.

Yeah, I liked it as a street car. I'd haved liked a garrett setup more tho :)
I think OP would be pleasantly surprised by how much fun a bolt on+tune MSM is.
But MOAR is always BETTAR, right? :giggle:

PS: yes what aidan said, at 230 it's pretty much at the limit. any more and you become greddygallant. the ihi really doesn't like over 12psi IMO

so not a rotrex?

he said power, not torque :party:

A/O with a Churbo is best :rofl:

TQ is power. Horses are something Joe Perez plays with.

right, but the brotrex makes plenty of broniez if you get the big one and spin it fast, just doesn't make them where they really matter for most of us :)

#AINTCARE

I'd rather give FFS my money than run a rotrex.

that says a lot.

Have you ever actually driven a Rotrex car?

i've driven a miata, and others, with a centrifugal supercharger. I've also (while not exactly the same) tuned my turbo to output just like one by tuning the boost to increase linearly to redline.

Have you ever street driven a miata?

No Scott is an elitist who only drives 1.6 cars.

dat 1.6 torque doe

I wonder when the brotrex will get knocked off for a chrotrex that has even less torque... the TacoTrex

I will do the Megasquirt first. That is a given. The tuner I found has no problem with Hydra or MS but he is more familiar with the Hydra. MSPNP seems to have much more support online, so that is the way I plan to go.


I would love to save money and buy all this separately, but I want to spend 2-3 long weekends in the garage doing the upgrades, get it tuned and drive it next summer. I don't want to spend weeks fitting things together from different vendors and then have to fab or return/reorder stuff.


If I still want more power, then more work the next winter. Internals would be the last mods when I go over 230 HP.


I think this is a sensible approach. I started this thread to look for alternatives to just writing a check to FM. Other than the MS PNP, I got no specifics from this thread. Trackspeed's coming kit (not yet out) or BEGI's A-O (still evolving and new to MSM) are higher risk. FM is the most expensive and least risk.


I want to bolt this stuff on and DRIVE it! Not spend months trying to get it to work reliably. I have THOUSANDS of miles of great 2 lane roads to drive but I don't want to debug the setup in some backwater Ozark town in Arkansas.

Start with bolt-ons and a tune. I think you will be very happy around 200-220whp, and you can get that safely without replacing the injectors. Get there and see how you like it, I was extremely happy with my 200whpish MSM, and most of my passangers were extremely scared.

Then, IF it's not enough power, you sell the bolt-ons to someone else who just got an MSM and is the same shoes you are in now, and you put the money towards an FM2, A/O, TSE, whatever you want.

Start small and build up. I don't know what your level car experience is, but a Miata doesn't need a ton of power to be fast or fun. My tuner who drives and tunes Miatas up to 400whp+ says that at the end of the day, he feels that around 240whp leaves you with the most balanced turbo miata possible, giving you enough power, but not enough to where it's a total handful to drive.

If you want to set it and forget it and a turbo kit is what you're after, get the FM2, and it will be the a smooth installation. I don't know enough about the TSE kit to say how it will fit. BEGi doesn't have the best reputation for fit and finish and repeatability of parts to be honest, and it's not just me speaking, I think most of the forum would agree.

I am leaning toward buying the LE and an MSPNP and don't know what for injectors yet. No ignition upgrade seems to be needed at this level. Install the Megasquirt and tune the base setup, then install the LE. That can all be done this winter, it will fit, and one trip to the tuner (4 hours away) for a weekend will get me in pretty good shape.
Base map will get me started and to the tuner. Is there a base map for the MSPMP with an LE installed and upgraded injectors floating around? If not, one of the guys from the Indy Miata club has this setup. I will check with him.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and patience. I know that "NOOBS" can be a pain. I hope to not be so annoying in the future.

Sounds like a plan. And I know you said you don't want to source parts on your own and have it be a pain, but if you buy things piece by piece, you can save a few hundred bucks and all you might need are a few clamps and hoses that might set you back $20. Look at the classifieds. Maybe someone will have a used catback that you'll just need bolts and gaskets for. Perhaps someone has an intake that you can get a few rubber hoses for, maybe some clamps. Downpipe I would buy new, just so you have the peace of mind of having a good catalytic converter in there, not one someone ran E85 with LOL

There's alternatives to the FM intake as well, and remember, a Hydra or MS will eliminate your MAF sensor, so make sure your intake accounts for that. Most FM intakes for the MSM IIRC are set up for a MAF sensor. They have a "Hydra" option that makes it one solid pipe.

LE with an MS will get you to that 200whpish level, where trust me, you will be :drool: for quite some time.

Brotrex is irrelevant to this discussion, the car is already turbocharged. He can make 235whp/235tq and street drive it for a long time with the stock IHI.

Greddygalant eats IHI's because he drives like Animal from Sesame Street, were Animal to drive. Come to think of it, they have about equal amounts of body hair ...

A megasquirt with injectors and uncorked boost, with no other mods, will transform this car.

The MSM intake set up is not Mazda's high point in quality of design. Put a vacuum gauge in the hose into the turbo and you can measure the flow loss of everything upstream.

Atmo has 30 inches of pressure. If the gauge reads 3 inches at stock boost & redline, then 10% of the atmosphere is lost and gone forever. We found 4.5 inches consistently. That drops the effective atmospheric pressure from 14.7 to 12.5. Using the 12.5 as atmo raises the pressure ratio without changing the boost. Thus heat goes up and air flow comes down.

Regarding heat, place a temp gauge on top of the strut tower and measure the temp that FM injests.

A few moons ago we measured the MSM IC eff at 84%. Not actually too bad.

On designing the A/O, our fit consistency was one of the major objectives. I think we accomplished it quite well. Simplicity and adjustability appears to have banished the gremlin.

corky

One of the very best upgrades I applied to my '04 MSM was a proper intake. Somewhere floating around are dyno sheets of the same car, on the same rollers, on the same day doing back-to-back runs of stock intake vs aftermarket "CAI". I'm not sure if the "C" was actually correct, but my CARB-approved replacement was worth something nearing 20whp.

I wasn't able to modify exhaust because Communist Republic of California, but a DP + full exhaust is worth easily another 20whp. Add a few more pounds of manifold pressure, get the tune right, and you'll have smiles for miles.