Begi Alpha Omega Kit - Feedback?
 

I am considering my upgrade options on my 05 Mazdaspeed Miata.

Options are: FM Little or Big Enchelada, FMII or BEGI Alpha-Omega (when it's available) Anybody have current experience with the BEGI AO on their car?

I am not building a track car, but I want to get what I can out of the stock drivetrain (except clutch) in one shot, if I go with the FMII or the BEGI AO at least. I am looking for the plus and minus of the options. I understand anything but the LE willl make me non ODB2 compiant.

Feedback?

Have you already installed an MSPNP Pro? If not that and a wideband need to be the first things. You can really make the MSM setup a good bit better with a proper ecu.

I understand the ECU is the weak link in the current setup. It seems there are at least 4 options for ECU. MSPNP, Hydra, BEGI reflash of stock ECU, or one of the piggyback units. I want to buy what best matches my mechanical mods. If I go with the FMII, then the Hydra, If I go with a BEGI upgrade, then whatever they recommend.


Loosing ODB2 is a minus in my opinion, for the smog check hassle and the effect on resale value. Just want to have a plan for the entire upgrade before starting to buy pieces.

There's really only one option: FM MSM "upgrade" with an MS of your choice.
The rest are.......mistakes

On the other hand, you can do the basic bolt ons and MS and get to 3/4 of your goal and be able to swap back to stock for smog in a few hours. And spend less money.

A standalone is what matches the mechanical mods the best. It doesn't matter if you use a MSPNP with an FMII, and in fact I would recommend it, because MS has much better support than Hydra. Don't even think about an ECU reflash or piggyback if you want what's best for your powertrain.

A tune will have to be adjusted for your setup anyway, so it's not like the Hydra goes with the FMII, it just happens that Flyin' Miata sells the Hydra and sells the FMII, so they sell them together. In reality they are two completely different systems.

If you do any vendor piggy back, Do the xede + stock ecu. I don't recommend the ecu reflash due to limits and how the added fuel is implemented using the MAF. If you ever need to go back to stock oem ecu after the reflash, you'll lose that feature unless you pay for another flash (back to stock but not really sorta). Xede + stock ecu still allows OBD2 & emissions if you can stomach the xede's price, get it without RC injectors and choose a higher quality ev14. Nigelt has a thread on 5.0 mustang injectors that will work. Five-O injectors work as well on xede.

If you go the MSPNP route, tons of support via these forums and as mentioned... You would need to keep all of your stock parts that make it 'oem' when the stock ecu is plugged in. (injectors, stock ecu, MAF). You change out the parts, reset codes, drive around with no boost (wire open wastegate) till all monitors set and go pass inspection. Reverse install mods, do burn outs with new said inspection sticker.

I don't know enough about the Hydra to make any comments, except that it's very expensive :burncash:

Forget about the piggy backs units. I would be very concerned with how they manage fuel and spark on an MSM ecu. I don't think I have ever seen anyone use piggybacks with a MSM ecu even.

Honestly not much in known about the Begi re-flash. You send them your ecu, then they send it to someone else. Then you get it back and hope it is good. I don't understand how it can be properly tuned for each individual car, and I also don't know if it fixes some of the things that the stock ecu does bad.

So basically keeping OBDII compatibility and having a well tuned msm is not going to work. Switching back to stock on an MSM should not be to bad.

That leaves you with the Hydra and the MSPNP Pro. Personal preference, and preference of the forum will be towards the MSPNP Pro. It comes in a good bit cheaper, can use many different widebands, and many people prefer the features set and usability of tuning software over the hyda. The hydra has phone support from FM, which could be seen as a plus.

I would follow 18PSI advice and do MS and then FM Big Enchalda kit.

I am an "analog" guy, moving up into the 21st century with my MSM. Previously I was tuning dual SU's on a 1970 Datsun 2000 Roadster. I am very computer literate, but I want a setup with vendor support. Where do I get a base map for a FMII and a Megasquirt? Who supports it? I'm in St. Louis, MO so I don't know a local tuner to take it to. I am fine doing the bolt on work. It's the ECU tuning that is the "black Box" to me!

A better question that should of been asked is how much power are you looking for?

If you want to skip on the ECU tuning headache & have vendor support WITHOUT making big changes to your drivetrain, I'd just do a big enchelada kit :bigtu: (though since it's not listed on the page, a question for FM is if the Hydra setup is still OBD2 friendly)

The good thing about computers these days is that they do all the work for you!

I don't believe that ANY aftermarket ECU (except piggyback) is ODB2 smog check compatible. FM would support the Hydra and that is in their Big Enchilada and the FMII turbo upgrade. HOW MUCH POWER? How much can I put thru the MSM trans and diff? I don't want to break things, at least not often. FM says 220-230 at the rear wheels is the limit of the BE. FMII will do that with the potential to go much higher later. MSM turbo is known to have problems. FMII replaces it. More money but more potential.


Anybody running the Alpha-Omega from BEGI?

Only a handful are running the AO manifolds & chinese turbos, no mazdaspeed examples yet.

The 220-230 whp is getting close to the limit of the rods. 250 is the claimed limit, and 220-230 is probably noted for long term reliability.

Basically the rods go at 250, and when you get to 280 or so is when you need to start doing more internal work. Oil pump, etc. The trans is good to 300ish (that one isn't 100% understood) and the diff is good to the limits of the FMII, assuming you don't abuse it (drag race often, clutch dumps, wheel hop).

MSM turbo upgrade recommendations
 

Thanks for the reply. FMII seems to be a good investment over the Big E and gets me something with more potential. FM says MSM clutch will hold up for a while, and replace it with Happy Meal when it wears out. I think the support from FM is as important as the brand of the ECU to me. I wish they were MS also, as it is the more popular unit, but I want to get it tuned and then drive it for a summer without worrying about reliability and support.


FM spent 10 minutes on the phone with me answering all my questions and I am comfortable with them. BEGI seems to be less available. 2 emails and 2 voicemails and no response yet. I was hoping for some positive feedback on their current product.

If you need vendor support buy a diypnp unit from DIYautotune. Those guy's provide great support for their products, and you have the community here and a wealth of information to fall back on if need be.

Honestly I would do some injectors and a MSPNP on the car first and get it tuned or learn yourself how to tune. The cars drivability will be greatly increased. It's a night and day difference even on a crappy base tune.

Based on how you feel after doing that, then decide whether or not you want the bigger turbo setup. Then when it comes to upgrade, all the hard work is already done and you can just bolt on a kit of your choice and tweak some things on the tune, then go about your merry way.

Seriously these cars on the stock turbo with a proper ecu and tune with bolt-ons can make 200-230whp and a heck of a lot of fun to drive.

Megasquirt has autotune for fueling. You just drive around and it adjusts the tune as necessary. When you get finished you click "Stop" and "Burn to ECU".

I don't know either (never used it, and don't have a MSM). But in other applications that keep the MAF sensor, the ECU uses the MAF to measure airflow directly. So you throw a better flowing head, header, and intake manifold on the car, and don't have to touch the tune because the MAF sees that additional airflow and automatically adds the extra fuel for it. Kinda of the reason MAF exist, it's awesome at adapting to what is actually happening.

Sounds like I sill have some studying to do. MSPNP looks interesting. I guess learning to tune or finding a local tuner are both on the table now. Injectors and MSPSP as a first upgrade is an interesting choice. In theory then, as I add intake or exhaust mods, the ECU with an MAF should adjust itself? I need an ECU primer to read up on. Any suggestions?

Buy this book and read it a few times. It is a good primer on ecu tuning in general.

that's not how it works, because then you could put a bigger turbo on maf cars and they will just compensate, and I have yet to see that happen, on any car. all still need a "tune" even if it's a terrible archaic reflash of an otherwise un-reprogrammable ecu where they just plug random numbers in and call it good....hint hint

Too bad it doesn't actually work like that.

Ordered the "book" on tuning along with Corky Bell's book. Starting to upgrade my brain to 21st century technology. Thanks for all the input here. I have much to learn and everyone's patients with a noob is appreciated. It's was 1975 when I took "Internal Combustion Engines" while pursuing a Mechanical Engineering degree. Digging deep to dredge up old knowledge.

Seriously considering the DIYAutotune MSPnp for the Mazdaspeed as my first upgrade now.

Going to make my list of mods for this winter and then winter 2016 and try to at least start with a plan.

Engine internals are for 2017 winter or beyond, unless my 220-230 HP upgrade just isn't enough! What should 0-60 and 1/4 mile be with that HP?

if you want 21st century technology might want to put down corky's book and get something newer.

I ran 13.6 @ 105 in my 220hp (dynojet) and 211hp (mustang dyno) MSM

Glad you ordered those 2 books. You will most likely learn a ton from them.

The MSPNP Pro for the MSM is probably the first thing I would recommend to anyone with an MSM. It alone opens up so many options and with a decent tune makes the car feel so much better then the stock ecu. There should be a few posts in the MS section and a few build threads that will show what the MS3 can do to make a MSM better.

I ordered one before I even bought my MSM :party:

Fellows.
We have an MSM upg with the A/O at the moment. Another in a week or two. Will report.


"For more efficient power at same psi, the FMII wins without a doubt."

Please explain................

corky

Only speaking on IHI MSM Turbo vs a GT2560. As I understand the extra heat created from the smaller turbo is not optimal when a larger turbo can push the same psi at a much larger rate with less heat created when pressurized.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I tend to be. :likecat:

Neither is more efficient. They are the same.

If you want more efficient go look at the TSE or FAB kits both of which are more efficient and better than FM/Begi

Are we talking 'kits' or turbos as I referenced above? :dunno:

A kit includes a turbo, or it wouldn't be a kit. The fm/begi Garrett kits obviously outperform the msm ihi setup which was an afterthought from the 90's. The begi china/ebay turbo is a joke so I'm not even including that in this convo.

The FAB/TSE kits have better...........everything
than fm/begi

:likecat:

Corky,


Very interested in more info on your A/O kit for MSM. What ECU are you developing it with? Teaser line on your website says ODBII compatible. Are you reflashing the factory unit or ? Looking forward to your update.

If your MAF is mounted pre-turbo like on the MSM, I don't see how it's really good for anything at all besides measuring how much air goes into the turbo.

OP, custom kits will generally get you more performance for your dollar but take more planning on your end.

As far as which vendor to buy from, FM is better in every single regard, maybe except for price, but you pay more for excellent customer support and tech service. FlyinMiata has also never sent me parts that blow up my car and then threatened me with a non-existing lawyer. I prefer all of those things from someone who I'm about to send a few thousand dollars to.

Well on the MSM, all the air that enters the turbo also enters the engine. So in that regard, it's really good for measuring how much air goes into the engine.

That's true. I did notice a big difference moving my MAF to post-turbo pre-throttle body location though, so that's really not the ideal place for it, though I've seen plenty of pre-turbo MAFed cars before.

OP, for 220whp, a set of bolt-ons, and a good tune with a Megasquirt of Hydra will do the trick. I was at around that power level with my MSM before on an MS tune, and let me tell you, it's very different from a stock MSM, even a stock tuned MSM. I would work your way up there, and see what you want to do later. Can always sell your bolt-ons to someone else, or re-use some with your FM2, like the exhaust could probably work, one side of intake piping would work, etc.

Clutch on the MSM is apparently good for way more than the stock turbo puts out, rumored by some to be good to almost 300 torques, but I don't know for sure. If you want incentive to get an ECU sooner, go unplug your TPS sensor and go for a drive (disregard the poor deceleration which a tuned ECU won't have). The TPS is to the right and under the throttle body, I think there's 3 wires going to it. It plugs up to a sensor under the throttle body. Check out how the power delivery is, how smooth it is, how much more power you get sooner. Some guys back in the day install a TPS switch that let them have the power for racing and then the stock ECU manners for driving. I think long-term this will have adverse effects, so just get a good tune. Where are you located? I'm sure we can recomend some places to take it to that will do a great job!

Or.... based on how MSMs run, it's really bad for that.

I'm going with really bad. I believe it's even the same part as normal NB.

I'm located in St. Louis MO. I would love to find a local tuner. Only issue I have with the FM kit is the Hydra, as tuners seem to be very few and far between. Remote is always a possibility. FM remote support is the default option I see so far.

You can get an FM2 without the ECU and then use a Megasquirt with it if you want. It comes with the manifold, turbo, down pipe, IC, piping, BOV, misc stuff, basically everything but an ECU and fatback. My advice is to find a good tuner locally that is trusted and has been doing tuning for some time. Then talk to them about your car and what options are available for it and see what they say. I used an amazing tuner but he was unfamiliar with the Megasquirt since he tunes Hydra/Link etc. and he did a great job but it took him much longer than expected, especially the idle and start-up. I was fortunate to have a DD and the downtime didn't matter.

Go to some local meets and talk to people about tuners. Facebook groups might lead to some finds too. Also ask on mazda-speed.com, I think there are a few St. Louis guys.

Don't have any experience with them, but Pur Performance in St Charles is supposedly pretty good. I am out in St Peters and can help you get a MS up and running, the auto tuning functionality in Tuner Studio is a wonderful thing and works very well. The base map included in MSLabs built MS2/MS3 are very good, make a great starting point, and are very safe.

My car has had a MS for around 4-5 years now and has never seen a dyno or professional tuner. Auto tune + detonation cans + mimicking others timing maps has worked pretty well.

If you drive less than 6k miles a year, you can qualify for a mileage based emissions exemption and don't have to worry about OBD2.

Midpack,


Are you a member of the Gateway Miata Club? I joined a month ago. Got 5 MSM's in the club now. I have some time to make a decision. I am learning a lot every day it seems. I want to have Phase I done by spring, whatever Phase I turns out to be. My biggest decision is to keep the factory turbo or dump it. Everything else is kind of independent. I don't want to buy stuff that only works with factory turbo and then turn around and replace half of it. I'll figure it out soon enough. My tuning book just came in today, and I have a new head unit to install for my audio upgrade this weekend.

Woody, have you looked at our EFR kits?

Not a member but did go on a drive with them several years back.

Nice thing about a MS, or Hydra, is it has no problem following you down whatever upgrade path you chose and you get the benefit of a nice smooth power band up front. You're going to have to do something with the ECU anyway, may as well make it your first stop. Of course pairing that with a turbo replacement will just make it awesome.

I have not looked at your products. Do you have a full kit, or is is it up to me to put the list together? I want something that I can do in a couple of weekends without any fab other than trimming, drilling and bolting it in.

I am taking preorders right now for a more DIY-oriented setup, but I will be adding individual parts to the basic manifold-turbo-downpipe kit, and the goal is to have a full-fledged and polished kit released in the spring.

It's worth waiting for, IMO. The EFR responds to throttle inputs much more quickly than a comparable Garrett, and it has the potential to make much more power than the closest Garrett competitor (the 2560R).

As a fellow EFR 6258 owner here, I can't say enough great things about this turbo. The power potential is perfect for the 1.8, torque builds insanely sooner and more rapidly than a comparable Garrett, and while the snail itself is around $1500, it comes with a wastegate, BOV, and a boost controller all built in. I would be a bit careful with your boost levels with an EFR and the stock internals however.

Agreed. The 6258 makes a ton of power per pound of boost. You can safely run a low-boost actuator around 7psi, even with a full 3" exhaust, without worrying about boost creep, though.

The Xede price from Bell is reasonable when you account for the fact it includes the Xede, the harness, and the injectors. Bell has been shipping EV14 injectors for at least 5 years if you specify the non-rc injectors; my 550's are EV14. The Xede solution draws an enormous amount of scorn and bullshit gets heaped upon it. It is not ideal and not nearly as powerful as a MS, but it works, and I passed OBDII emissions twice with it.

HP is misleading; torque is what kills rods. For street use you can probably get away with 200 ft/lbs and survive. For track use, anything over 150 and I would be worried. Greddygalant ran a MS on his MSM powertrain, got 235/235 out of the motor, and bent the rods within 4 track days IIRC.

I ran ~190wtq through a stock block for a long time before it finally broke a rod, but that was after 20 track days and 160k on the stock longblock, and the other rods were not bent, so IMO the power isn't what broke it. I think you can do 200wtq safely in a track car, and perhaps 220wtq in a street car.

"Very interested in more info on your A/O kit for MSM. What ECU are you developing it with? Teaser line on your website says ODBII compatible. Are you reflashing the factory unit or ? Looking forward to your update."

The A/O is not locked in on any specific ECU or turbo. You can use whatever you choose.
The reflash can work with up to 500cc/min injectors, and remains compatible with OBDII.

corky

"My biggest decision is to keep the factory turbo or dump it. Everything else is kind of independent."

The "joke" of a chinacharger is just another well crafted sleeve bearing turbo, as is the IHI.
The joker is big enough to make some power, but fails with twice the frequency of a Garrett. Joker failures are running about 1 in 100, with Garrett's about 1 in 200. Every china joker failure I've been privvy to examine was actually an assembly error. Wrong size rear bearing.

corky

I think the "joke" he refers to is the perceived mismatch between compressor and turbine sizes, and nothing to do necessarily with the quality of the unit.

Mismatch is #1
#2 is paying $600 for a part that's easily available for $150

OK, I am learning a lot from this discussion and my subsequent research on the comments. What kind of budget is needed to do the internal engine work to go to 300 HP? Rods & pistons for sure. Head work? Does anybody O-ring Miata heads or what? When does the head gasket become an issue? I have seen oil system upgrades also mentioned. This is work I would have to have done by an expert. I guess the turbo upgrade eventually leads to the internals, but I don't know how many thousands we are talking about.

2500-5000 depending on what you want and level of involvement
not unless you want to
no one needed to thus far. ever.
it doesn't on a 1.8 with arp studs
yes, get BE oil pump to sleep better at night
At least 2 of the vendors here could arrange a "one stop shop" for you where you'd get a built engine and turbo setup from one place

I plan to do the following.
Adaptronics ecu but not installed yet.
1000 cc id injectors and DW fuel pump - have these already
Track speed manifold with the smaller efr turbo, their dp and some sort of custom intake piping unless they come up with a pnp solution
Fm catback because I already have it
Fab 9 ic because I already have it
Forged bottom end super tech and eagle - have it but not installed
Stock MSM head with stock cams
Ported stock manifold
Bigger tb. I already have it
Fm clutch and flywheel

Be happy to run 300 whp which is 2x stock more or less and I don't have to worry too much about trans or diff. Might go to taller diff ratio depending on how the car feels. Not looking for a track monster, just a fun street car.

Harry

$2500-$5000 for a built motor is about what it will cost at the end of the day. No clue what O-rining a head is, but we don't do it to miata's. Head gaskets generally are not ever an issue, unless you mess up the install. Oil system upgrade would be a BE pump, or an ATI super damper, or 949Racing damper.

Honestly if you get a standalone and get a good tune you can make the stock MSM turbo run well enough to about max out the motor. I would start there and determine if it is enough for you to be happy. Getting into a built motor and larger turbo setup starts to get very expensive, very quickly.

O-ringing a head is when you cut oring grooves into the head and block because your head gasket cant handle the boost.

Ahh interesting. That is definitely something we don't do in the miata world.

It's done more on open or semi-open deck blocks and setups that run massive amounts of boost. Those setups tend to also run crazy head studs 1/2" and larger in diameter.

None of this is common on miata's where you're seriously flying past 300whp to the point that most can't handle that power level properly, let alone 400-500+

Miata's are simple. Nothing fancy needed. Easy

I disagree on the mismatch. The relative exhaust gas pressure to intake pressure fits in just fine. The turbo is quite good at producing 2000 rpm boost, steady boost to the redline, and 235 rwhp at 9 psi is not too shabby. The cars have been a delight to drive.

With 25 years of turbo Miata experience with IHI, Aerodyne, Garrett, Mitsubishi, and (3, I think)chinas, the Garrett remains my favorite.

So far, I think we've identified three china turbo makers. The one we use also makes parts for the others. Ebay is not our source.

I've not seen a failed Miata head gasket in the same 25 years. No oil pump failures or related stuff. Two cranks, half dozen rods, a few bearings, no pistons, a couple valve guides, no trannies, no diffs, half dozen clutches, and one cracked head.

It is my opinion that one can easily expense one's self into the range of decreasing fun and acquire no real benefits to show.

The places a few bucks can be spent to maintain the fun, in my view, are shedding some btus from the entire system and improving the details of getting the charge air through its path with the least resistance.

corky